.35 Whelen

[Old Guard]

Just reading here, it sounds like his rifle is the primary weapon in his stash? I took the time to look up the ballistics..Sounds like a nice conversion...`

[Shug]

deleted because I was replying to the wrong thread.

[ordmm]

Aimless ramblings about alternative Garand calibers........And sorry if I'm hijacking the thread.....

I have beat around alternative cartridges for the Garand, mainly the BM14/Mini G for some time now. Think I even blabbed away to Tim about a .243 a number of times. I think a .243 BM14 would be a great rifle---and with some work could be kept light weight, and obviously with the shorter barrel, a really nice handling rifle. Could be produced with or without a mag. Have put a fair amount of time looking at the core component of alternative cartridges for the Garand...and that is the barrel. Lots of machining on a Garand barrel. Almost all of the machine ops have to be in harmony with each other or the barrel is hard, or impossible to make work. Makes it pretty much beyond what a guy can do with a lathe in his basement for sure. All together it makes non-standard Garand barrels expensive. Very expensive actually even if you can get a shop to do one. The only answer would be to run a basic machining op on blanks of most any caliber that turned and treaded all the external dimensions. A cnc lathe like the HAAS TL1/2 is being used already by a couple of barrel makers to do this with some milling ops being done as a second op. The lathe don't know or care if the blank is a 243 or 35 caliber as it is only told to machine and thread the outer diameter. So anyway, and this is just to give a point of info, the cost of a mass production blank is about $100. to $150. and then you would have to take into account a reamer/headspace tooling set for the desired cartridge which has to be another $300. to $400. at the minimum. Add in labor and machine time and on a singe unit you would probably have around $500. in a barrel at a minimum. Which leads to the price of the 35 Whelen which considering the cost of a donor barrel and reboring/rifling it really is not a bad deal for a "heavy" caliber Garand. For a versatile "light" Garand, .308 give a person the choice of lighter and less recoil loads, and the 30-06 presents at this time lots a choices on loads and for the most part fairly good prices on ammo. Think that's about it. Now gonna stare at the .243 blank laying on the bench and just keep telling myself to quit dreaming.

[jbkf1003]

I want one in .276 pedersen....

[ordmm]

I want one in .276 pedersen....

Might be the only caliber you can own in the "land of the fee" pretty soon.

[jbkf1003]

Might be the only caliber you can own in the "land of the fee" pretty soon.

Nah 1851 Navies come in all kinds of calibers...

[centurion20000]

I guess I'm just as stupid as you are then, I didn't see how there was a 5 round limiting factor either. Here's the reason, look at a 35, look at a 30/06, now look at where each bullet rests while in the mag well, the actual bullet. The bullets rest between a rail on either side, those rails don't let the fatter 35's double stack completely.

I would call a 5 round enbloc "semi stable". You might actually be able to get 6 in there but it's darn tough. 6 rounds is far more stable.

Tim,
Would it be possible to take a picture of a Garand clip loaded with 5 & 6 35 Whelen rounds loaded? Would love to see it personally. Thank you.

[centurion20000]

I guess I'm just as stupid as you are then, I didn't see how there was a 5 round limiting factor either. Here's the reason, look at a 35, look at a 30/06, now look at where each bullet rests while in the mag well, the actual bullet. The bullets rest between a rail on either side, those rails don't let the fatter 35's double stack completely.

I would call a 5 round enbloc "semi stable". You might actually be able to get 6 in there but it's darn tough. 6 rounds is far more stable.

Tim, have you tried machining the receivers rails down in order to get the 35 Whelen rounds to double stack properly? That would make it pretty much a 35 Whelen dedicated receiver but the rails dont look like they are that critical for receiver frame strength. You could also open up the guide cuts for the rounds to feed as a compensation for slightly misaligned 30-06 rounds.

Requirements.jpg

[timshufflin]

Tim, have you tried machining the receivers rails down in order to get the 35 Whelen rounds to double stack properly? That would make it pretty much a 35 Whelen dedicated receiver but the rails dont look like they are that critical for receiver frame strength. You could also open up the guide cuts for the rounds to feed as a compensation for slightly misaligned 30-06 rounds.

Requirements.jpg

I believe the military tried opening up those rails on accident in the past and didn't they get a 7th round stoppage?

[centurion20000]

Not sure, but it wouldn't be a complete removal, just whatever that width is in a 35 Whelen en bloc loaded with 8 rounds minus the width of a 30-06 en bloc loaded with 8 rounds. The tension of the en bloc should keep 30-06 in its correct dimensions even inside the rifle without the ridges [a test would be to slide a thin feeler gauge down the rail alongside the rounds and test for physical contact]. The trick would be to check the 'spread' of the 35 Whelen bullet tips compared to the 30-06 bullet tips and see if that induced a feeding issue. Which was why I was suggesting opening the feed lips slightly on the front of the receiver.

I'd run the numbers myself, but I don't have any 35 Whelen ammo laying around. [No rifle]

If this looks viable I have a spare Garand receiver for mad science.
[Who wouldnt want a 9.09mm MBR using 8 round en blocs??]


A good reference might be to check a diagram or the internals of the T22E2 prototype select fire Garand that they were working on for the invasion of Japan. (The T20 used a slightly longer receiver and had the mod for the magazine; the T22 was the BAR mod with a standard Garand receiver)
The Springfield Armory National Historic Site is located in Springfield, Massachusetts. Hmmm ... might be time for a road trip.
Question: When you are running a conversion from 30-06 to a mag fed BM59 clone do you have to machine or open up the receiver at all in order to get the magazine to fit?