Cartouche variation ?

[jak]

I brought this subject up on the CMP forum about 3-4 years ago and it turned into a good discussion. I thought I would start it again but this time only on BT.


There are and always will be questions on whether a cartouche is real or fake. Some will say a cartouche is fake because a "." (period) or an initial looks funny or is in the wrong position or wrong shape. Is it possible that there are different variations of a legitimate and official cartouches ? For now we can talk about the G.A.W. cartouche.

1) I can’t believe that there was only one inspector stamp used for all those stocks. Especially when they were producing garands at rates of 100,000 per month. So how many G.A.W. stamps were made ? 5? 10? 20? 100?

2) Was the government really interested in accuracy among the stamps made or just getting them out as quickly as possible ? The government wasn’t making collector items. It was just making a stamp that said “yep, this is the guy inspecting the stocks this month”

3) How were the stamps manufactured ? Were they engraved individually? If so, there could be variations among different engravers. Were they made from a mold ? Was a master cartouche stamp made and then copies made from the original ? If the same mold was used multiple times, could the mold degrade or get contaminated with dirt or something ? Would a degrading of a mold cause the initials to become larger (fatter) than the original ?

4) Were the stamps made from a hardened steel which resist most abuse and not wear out or from a softer metal that would be easier to make in quantity but could possibly be damaged easier?

5) It is possible that stamps were damaged on the production line. Maybe by dropping them or improperly stamping something else other than the stock ? If so, were they removed from the production line?

Any of these things could cause some variations in catouches, so it is theoretically possible that multiple “correct” catouches exist.

This is some of the stuff I was thinking about. I will admit that I don’t know the first thing about cartouches, I’m just asking a bunch of questions.
What do you guys think ?

[paid4c4]

John, I really don't have much to add to your thread except to say congratulations on posting a gun related topic very refreshing.
Bill

[Punch The Clown]

Jak, I believe there was only 1 stamp for each commander and it was guarded by eunics. The stamp was kept alongside the Book of Armament on a small velvet pillow and was only handled by the Cartouche Knights. The stamps themselves were hand engraved to exacting tolerances by skilled Bavarian artisans who, in peacetime, worked engraving plates for the US Mint.

[MajorD]

jak all your points are well taken. until very recently I doubt these markings were commonly re-stamped or otherwise faked. I recall looking at my big clawson book how it shows variations in the appearance of the colt pony on 1911's "due to periodic stamping die changes"

[canes7]

I brought this subject up on the CMP forum about 3-4 years ago and it turned into a good discussion.

I dare you to try that again today.

[jak]

I dare you to try that again today.

Actually it might be fun watching all the so called experts and garand gods degrade the discussion into a street fight.

Maybe I will in a week or two.

[Cal30M1]

Actually it might be fun watching all the so called experts and garand gods degrade the discussion into a street fight.

Maybe I will in a week or two.

Let me know when. I haven't been to CMP in ages!

[wgandy]

Actually it might be fun watching all the so called experts and garand gods degrade the discussion into a street fight.

Maybe I will in a week or two.

Please let us know when.....I want to be sure and have my popcorn ready.........


BTW jak - looks like we are M1CC neighbors.....#111 and #112

[BRUTUS]

I'm afraid you'd get input from the same combatants, but I'm just speculating......

I agree 100% on your observations/speculations.....if a stamp was dropped, they didn't care if it got an indented line(maybe it was suposed to be parallel line.....H, maybe?) But the experts speak in absolutes, and after exploring M1s for a relatively short period of time, I feel there are NO absolutes......

[Rick B]

I find if funny because just like a political debate you are stating you want a conversation over something you didn't agree with before from the other party. You want it while picking on those who tried to help and you refused to take there comments as good then, so now you post in order to pick on the so called experts only so you can get the answer you want to hear instead of the real answer. It honestly is funny

I have thousands upon thousands of records and my proof is there. I gave my answer many times over but I see it wasn't to your liking. You will find it very hard to buy wood so if I was you I would make sure I didn't buy any wood anymore as you risk failure in this area for sure since any stamp can be real, lol. Rick B