An Appeal to the Forum Owner

[dogboysdad]

Tim:

I would like to formally appeal the ten (10) day banning of RuggedTerrain40. I have reviewed the forum rules:


Forum Rules

Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Complete Registration' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.

Although the administrators and moderators of Battle Tested will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this site, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of Battle Tested, nor vBulletin Solutions, Inc. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

The owners of Battle Tested reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason..I do not believe that RT40 posted anything "obscene, vulgar, sexually oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws." In fact, his posts seem to be placed in the appropriate forum sections and seem to comply with what one can only term as "Battle Tested community standards."

Please reconsider this arbitrary and capricious banning of RT40. RT40 has breathed new life into this forum and brings to the table years of technical and tactical know-how. Please do not waste this valuable addition to our BT community.

[LEAD POISON]

RULE #1 Tim is the boss.
RULE #2 see above.

[Punch The Clown]

I agree with The Lawyer. RuggedTerrain is representative of a slice of the American Culture.

[cuppednlocked]

If he insults my wife again we'll have problems...

[KnickKnack]

If he insults my wife again we'll have problems...

I think what we are trying to say here is, "we got your back". ;)

[cuppednlocked]

I think what we are trying to say here is, "we got your back". ;)

I have no doubts!

I believe her post also summed up the situ very well...

[timshufflin]

I have no doubts!

I believe her post also summed up the situ very well...


I'd have problems too. I recommend a visit to his prestigious home, If it isn't one person, it's another.

[Rick B]

I beg to differ, all of his hateful stuff went on out of the War Room. I had issues with most here at one time as they with me from the old CMP days. Some refused to deal with me here and I didn't get out of control. Tim and I spoke a bit and naturally cautiously at first but I feel I have not harmed anyone here even with some antics for Mr. Wilson who I personally feel took it way to far. I mean come on everyone can make a remark on his disability but I show a picture and am doomed to hell. I let it go and life goes on. RT was way out of hand and didn't come here to hit things head on and straighten it out. His intentions were to disrupt and attack. RIck B

[timshufflin]

We have a 7 day ban. This will be the "last chance" when the ban is over.

[Orlando]

Heres my 2 cents.
No profanity or vulgar comments allowed anywhere on the forum unless it is in the War Room
I would not have been near as lenient as Tim

[timshufflin]

Heres my 2 cents.
No profanity or vulgar comments allowed anywhere on the forum unless it is in the War Room
I would not have been near as lenient as Tim


You are correct sir. The issue was/is that an initial warning was due first, then infractions, then banning. There are people on this very thread who have uttered profanity on this board but did not do so maliciously. We can't all be the judge of what's malicious just because we don't like someone.

[timshufflin]

One more thing, I could not possibly monitor the posts that were made fast enough. This stuff started at just after midnight last night. I went at it for almost an hour and then actually had to work this morning. While working, checked iphone for more chaos, it just never ended.

[Orlando]

Everyone slips a four letter word now and then ,I understand. Letting them rip in multiple threads is way out of line

[cuppednlocked]

I'd have problems too. I recommend a visit to his prestigious home, If it isn't one person, it's another.

I am not the type to puff out my chest on the internet and issue threats for rude behavior (no matter how angry I get). Given the circumstances I am taking precautions to ensure the safety of my family by doing a little search for his location. I'm just glad he's offered quite a bit of information in his posts to narrow his general location as well as his profession.

[timshufflin]

I am not the type to puff out my chest on the internet and issue threats for rude behavior (no matter how angry I get). Given the circumstances I am taking precautions to ensure the safety of my family by doing a little search for his location. I'm just glad he's offered quite a bit of information in his posts to narrow his general location as well as his profession.


Well now, I wouldn't worry to much. Call Canes, he'll let you know what sort of person you're dealing with.

[cuppednlocked]

I'm not worried but you can rest assured I have enough information now to deal with a situation if a real need arises!

Dan and I have already spoken about RT and I have gotten his impression of the "IRL" RT40.

[Schriv]

I didn't see much of him from the previous version of the board since I came on board just before the shift. But what I've seen today is more than a bit annoying.
His posts on CMP and now here amount to little more than spam. Spam that is almosty always in very poor taste. I like a good joke and foul language doesn't offend me in the least. But insulting a mans wife rates a very real world beat-down. The down home, redneck, curb stomping kind.
Temporary bans don't seem to do much to modify his behaviour, and he reverts to type as soon as he's let back on. Is there any benifit to ever allowing him back? I'd say no, since all he did was try to double the post count of the entire board, and it was all complete crap.

[timshufflin]

I didn't see much of him from the previous version of the board since I came on board just before the shift. But what I've seen today is more than a bit annoying.
His posts on CMP and now here amount to little more than spam. Spam that is almosty always in very poor taste. I like a good joke and foul language doesn't offend me in the least. But insulting a mans wife rates a very real world beat-down. The down home, redneck, curb stomping kind.
Temporary bans don't seem to do much to modify his behaviour, and he reverts to type as soon as he's let back on. Is there any benifit to ever allowing him back? I'd say no, since all he did was try to double the post count of the entire board, and it was all complete crap.

Great points Schriv, I've opened a poll in the WW.

[paid4c4]

If he insults my wife again we'll have problems...
Boys I don't know what's went on to get things to this point but i do understand that most of us here respect each other even though we may pick on, curse at or cut each other. But at the end of the day we all get along and have fun. However family members are off limits and exempt from the trash talk act, act, ect. If Tim feels strong enough to kick someone off the forum for a day or for ever he deserves our support. So Tim I support your action.
Bill

[howie]

I remember a time when I got into a heated discussion with someone on this board. It started in a public thread, then went private. We went back and forth for quite a while, and got on each other pretty hard. Not once do I recall a single personal insult, attack, or anything even remotely considered below the belt. I didn't see all the content of the thread(s) that started this discussion, but I saw enough. Like Bill said, sure, we get after each other from time to time, and it can even get heated, but I've yet to see anything on this forum that even comes close to the few blurbs I saw earlier tonight. It's unacceptable.

[Roadkingtrax]

I trust those that run the forum, because I do not.

Internet Argument Pyramid

http://www.voiceable.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Internet-Argument-Pyramid.jpg

[TheWIFE]

Well, as of last night i was letting this go. I did, however, check to see if the thread that spurred my involvment was deleted...it was not, much to my chagrin.

"Counselor", your opening statement and defending arguments are not only poorly researched, they are deeply flawed as you are wrong on every point in your appeal. You should have done your homework before representing your client, ruggedterrain40. If you had simply researched past threads for RT40, you would be privy to the fact that about 95.5% of the threads that RT40 has involvement in since his previous temporary ban has been lifted ARE indeed of the nature in which you described them not to be. He has violated many, if not all, of the standards put in place by the administrators of this message board, and all within a 24 hour time frame. I can go on and on if you need me to further elaborate, dogboysdad, but be forewarned, this is not my first rodeo in the courtroom.

For the rest of you that are in favor of appealing ruggedterrain40's ban on the argument alone of expressing speech freely, refer back to the Bill of Rights. Freedom of speech not mean you can say whatever you want, anywhere you want, to whomever you want without being held accountable for your actions. Without having to give you an entire lecture on the American Constitution, the Bill of Rights and amendments, you have the right to speak freely about concerns and the well being of the state in front of congress without being sentenced to punishment for your opinions. You cannot, however, say "bomb" in an enclosed public space without immediate reprocussions. Verbal threats are an expression of speaking freely, they are not expressions of free speech as you defend the term, and they can be held against you in a court of law. Keep in mind, we all have the right to remain silent; that IS black and white. Verbal assaults are considered slander, and depending on your state and local govt's laws, one could be locked up for making such remarks as those seen on these meeage boards in the last 36 hours. Do you need further elaboration?

Finally, to the moderators: what is your argument for allowing ruggedterrain40 to come back to these boards, again? This messasge board is a private entity where the creator(s) have complete jurisdiction over all of its members. You have the right to kick out whomever you wish and deny access to whomever you wish. If you feel the need to allow this member in question to return to said message board because of his Constitutional Rights, they need not apply here. However, this board has its own rules and regulations (or constitution as it were) that we as members have all agreed to abide by. RuggedTerrain40 has violated all of said community standards on this message forum numerous times, has been banned twice (to my knowledge) and you are in favor of inviting him back once more to disturb, offend and threaten your members in good and high standing? Yes, this is your website and you can do just about anything you want with it, but why would you allow and encourage that behavior to go on?

One more thing, i am absolutely dumbfounded that the moderators have not removed the explicit thread that they know sparked my involvment onthis discussion board. Changing the wording around does absolutely nothing to make the situation right, nor does substituting characters and symbols for the derrogatory language. RuggedTerrain40 violated every one of the board's standards with his comment regarding taking indecent liberties with Cuppednlocked's wife, that would be me in case there is any confusion. The thread which started out as harmless took a turn right into sexually explicit and violent in nature, and it should be removed out of respect for the members immediately.

My closing argument is this: moderators, keeping people like RuggedTerrain40 away from your message board may not be a cure-all to nasty banter on these forums, and you have the right to grant him another chance, but is it more important to look out for his best interest or the best interest of your members as a whole? That is the question that i leave you with.

Post Script, since i do not have permission to enter the war room and vote in the poll that pertains to this thread, please note that my vote would be to ban RuggedTerrain40 from this discussion board permanently, just in case i didn't make my opinion clear enough in my arguments above.

[Orlando]

Hear! Hear!

[timshufflin]

Well, as of last night i was letting this go. I did, however, check to see if the thread that spurred my involvment was deleted...it was not, much to my chagrin.

"Counselor", your opening statement and defending arguments are not only poorly researched, they are deeply flawed as you are wrong on every point in your appeal. You should have done your homework before representing your client, ruggedterrain40. If you had simply researched past threads for RT40, you would be privy to the fact that about 95.5% of the threads that RT40 has involvement in since his previous temporary ban has been lifted ARE indeed of the nature in which you described them not to be. He has violated many, if not all, of the standards put in place by the administrators of this message board, and all within a 24 hour time frame. I can go on and on if you need me to further elaborate, dogboysdad, but be forewarned, this is not my first rodeo in the courtroom.

For the rest of you that are in favor of appealing ruggedterrain40's ban on the argument alone of expressing speech freely, refer back to the Bill of Rights. Freedom of speech not mean you can say whatever you want, anywhere you want, to whomever you want without being held accountable for your actions. Without having to give you an entire lecture on the American Constitution, the Bill of Rights and amendments, you have the right to speak freely about concerns and the well being of the state in front of congress without being sentenced to punishment for your opinions. You cannot, however, say "bomb" in an enclosed public space without immediate reprocussions. Verbal threats are an expression of speaking freely, they are not expressions of free speech as you defend the term, and they can be held against you in a court of law. Keep in mind, we all have the right to remain silent; that IS black and white. Verbal assaults are considered slander, and depending on your state and local govt's laws, one could be locked up for making such remarks as those seen on these meeage boards in the last 36 hours. Do you need further elaboration?

Finally, to the moderators: what is your argument for allowing ruggedterrain40 to come back to these boards, again? This messasge board is a private entity where the creator(s) have complete jurisdiction over all of its members. You have the right to kick out whomever you wish and deny access to whomever you wish. If you feel the need to allow this member in question to return to said message board because of his Constitutional Rights, they need not apply here. However, this board has its own rules and regulations (or constitution as it were) that we as members have all agreed to abide by. RuggedTerrain40 has violated all of said community standards on this message forum numerous times, has been banned twice (to my knowledge) and you are in favor of inviting him back once more to disturb, offend and threaten your members in good and high standing? Yes, this is your website and you can do just about anything you want with it, but why would you allow and encourage that behavior to go on?

One more thing, i am absolutely dumbfounded that the moderators have not removed the explicit thread that they know sparked my involvment onthis discussion board. Changing the wording around does absolutely nothing to make the situation right, nor does substituting characters and symbols for the derrogatory language. RuggedTerrain40 violated every one of the board's standards with his comment regarding taking indecent liberties with Cuppednlocked's wife, that would be me in case there is any confusion. The thread which started out as harmless took a turn right into sexually explicit and violent in nature, and it should be removed out of respect for the members immediately.

My closing argument is this: moderators, keeping people like RuggedTerrain40 away from your message board may not be a cure-all to nasty banter on these forums, and you have the right to grant him another chance, but is it more important to look out for his best interest or the best interest of your members as a whole? That is the question that i leave you with.

Post Script, since i do not have permission to enter the war room and vote in the poll that pertains to this thread, please note that my vote would be to ban RuggedTerrain40 from this discussion board permanently, just in case i didn't make my opinion clear enough in my arguments above.


All that need be done is a PM from those offended asking for a removal of a post or offending part. I'm dumbfounded that somebody that would want something offensive gone would not ask for it to be gone. Frankly, the reply to the "offensive" post made me a little unsettled as well but I can live through it. It is not up to me to be a mind reader, if someone thinks something stinks, please email me the offending text and tell me what you want done. I will consider it every time.

Of course the risk of doing this is creating a giant sissy forum where nothing can be said lest someone's feelings are hurt. We would sit around all day talking about tea and crumpets, banter about the good old days, and wish each other Merry Christmas with no geographical flavor, no insults, no anything except for what the typical Human Resources Department would allow at any fortune 500. Boring

One more thing, when something stupid is posted, it doesn't always have to be taking down the stupid item that punishes the purveyor of the stupidity. Leaving the stupid words up to haunt the offender is even more affective.

[Punch The Clown]

I look at RT40 as an educational experience and an eye opener, akin to watching the movie Deliverance and American History X for the first time.

[TheWIFE]

Tim, it is clear where you stand. It is one thing to have hurt feelings, it is another to be threatened. I should not have had to private message you to ask you to remove the thread, you should have used your "better judgement" in that matter and deleted it on the spot when you became enlightened to it. Perhaps you should sit down and think long and hard about rewriting your forum standards so you dont find yorself in a position where you are contradicting yourself. And while you are sitting there and thinking about that, take some time to think about someone making comments like that about your wife and how she would handle it if she saw the thread for herself. My husband can fight his own battles as i can fight mine, but you showed him and your other members disrespect by allowing that thread to spiral out of control in the manner that it did. I did what i felt i needed to do since you DIDNT do what you should have done. So, with all do respect, would you please remove the thread if you have not already?

[timshufflin]

Tim, it is clear where you stand. It is one thing to have hurt feelings, it is another to be threatened. I should not have had to private message you to ask you to remove the thread, you should have used your "better judgement" in that matter and deleted it on the spot when you became enlightened to it. Perhaps you should sit down and think long and hard about rewriting your forum standards so you dont find yorself in a position where you are contradicting yourself. And while you are sitting there and thinking about that, take some time to think about someone making comments like that about your wife and how she would handle it if she saw the thread for herself. My husband can fight his own battles as i can fight mine, but you showed him and your other members disrespect by allowing that thread to spiral out of control in the manner that it did. I did what i felt i needed to do since you DIDNT do what you should have done. So, with all do respect, would you please remove the thread if you have not already?

As a rule we have a pretty friendly crowd here, the members cross all social and economic slices of life. We have different beliefs on many subjects but we debate things without personal insults and, most of the time, without hurt feelings. Fortunately, this forum has not attracted rt40 types.


I don't have an answer for everything that can go on here. Every once in a while you let the Genie out of the bottle and see what is going to happen. There is no way anyone could foresee all the things that were said by rt40, yes you could say he would be bad but not this sick. Burying one's head in the sand does not make it so that rt40's are not there. rt40 is an anomaly in this group but believe it or not, there are forums completely dedicated to his type.

[timshufflin]

Heres my 2 cents.
No profanity or vulgar comments allowed anywhere on the forum unless it is in the War Room
I would not have been near as lenient as Tim


Is this what people want? Maybe I'm not in touch? What happens if someone does do this or slips up? Infraction? I could list just about every single person on this forum for these types of things. This is NOT a church. This is NOT a Politically Correct democratic convention hall. This is NOT a PC ridden fortune 500 HR department. If we all want a lilly white facade you better be able to take it when you blub up. Can you take it? Well can you?

Heck, I can't even edit the profanity out of someone's post without them crying like I edited their rendition of Common Sense. These are not valuable, awe inspiring prose we're writing here folks so let's not pretend they are. On the other hand, I'll either give you a Nanny state or something other than that. I will not meet in the middle.

[Orlando]

Again RT was not alittle slip of profanity /and personal attack , I myself removed the F bomb and other #### from 4 posts, not to mention all the posts you had to edit
Personally I have not seen anyone else on the forum 'slip' this many times in 24hrs, maybe I am blind
As a mod I have asked several people to edit the signature lines to more PG rated and reminded them of language and no one else sent me a colorful PM .
Bottom line IMO take it to the War Room
Its your site Tim, do as you feel is right.
Your Humble Servant ,Orlando :)

[timshufflin]

Again RT was not alittle slip of profanity /and personal attack , I myself removed the F bomb and other #### from 4 posts, not to mention all the posts you had to edit
Personally I have not seen anyone else on the forum 'slip' this many times in 24hrs, maybe I am blind
As a mod I have asked several people to edit the signature lines to more PG rated and reminded them of language and no one else sent me a colorful PM .
Bottom line IMO take it to the War Room
Its your site Tim, do as you feel is right.
Your Humble Servant ,Orlando :)

Yes Orlando, the spirit of what you say is dead ON! Like the federal government though, I cannot make any rule that some clever individual cannot get around. I count on the people on this forum to let me know EXACTLY what has buzzed their bonnet and EXACTLY what they want done about it. Orlando, you have made it clear on several occasions when you want to remove something. I'll ask you, did someone bring the offending post to your attention or were you just getting the sense that what was written was wrong? Are we going to say that you can't say $h1t using symbols? Most forums out there allow this. The CMP forum, a lilly white forum by many standards, allows the use of the word asshole. In fact, I've seen a progression of foul language that has started to appear over there.

If I could have my absolute own way, I would allow ANYTHING just as I do in the war room. There is not one among us who has not used foul language and the feigning of disgust when we see it typed is comical to me. Ever see Christmas Story? The kid is asked where he heard the word F*&K from, he makes it clear he hears it from the old man on an almost daily basis but he can't tell his mother that even though she listens to it right along with him, it's comical. The war room is my compromise for language and arguing, the compromise was broken by rt40, and the chronological time period went something like this;

1. About 12:05am I found the first rt40 blub as I was going to bed, I edited it and sent a warning but had no idea if he got the warning, how would I?
2. I found an entire series more of blubs by rt40 between the hours of 12:05am and 1am. I warned him on the next one too but again, had no idea how to tell if he got the warning and the other stuff I read was all already written before he got the second warning.
3. I then started giving infractions even though I didn't know if he got the warnings. I had read in my software that three infractions gets you banned and at this point I didn't care. The ban would be a temporary ban which would get me through a week of time while I thought about what to do with the guy.
4. Thinking I had banned rt40 for at least a week, I wake up and see he's been posting again! Oh, I say, I only had given him two infractions, I give him another thinking it's done and go to work.
5. I'm in my shop working and check my email and see more heck breaking loose but there's nothing I can do at that time because frankly I can't see my little phone screen well enough to navigate around the forum admin software.
6. When I come in there are reported posts all over the place, more infraction by Orlando, blah blah blah.
7. I see arguments that are just sick and replies that are not sick but also break forum rules. I would love to just delete posts but I can't read minds. Do people want posts left up so that the person can be held accountable and others can see what an ass hat the offender is? I simply change the profanity and let it go. It is up to the offended to make their feelings clear, not up to me to read minds.
8. Because I don't delete things does NOT mean I don't care. It means I respect the opinions and freedoms of others and they must know what they want for themselves.
9. I was also furious at the religious attacks on both the Muslim and Jewish faiths, many here don't seem to care squat about that. I cared but I let it go waiting for someone who cared to let me know that they wanted it down.

In conclusion, I have stuff to do just like everyone else and I will make mistakes, I will appear insensitive, I will not act fast (unless I'm working on a project for someone), but I will ALWAYS CARE. Please though, just communicate if your offended by something or what you want to happen may never happen. I may even disagree with someone who wants something taken down but don't judge me unless you communicate.

Peace, God Bless, Alah Bless, Jehovah Bless, Happy New Year!

[Orlando]

Tim
Its was F bombs and s*** without the symbols
No one brought it to my attention, I saw it on my own in the morning. Did not even know what went on the night before until after I have edited some of his posts.
I am in no way trying to be argumentative just confused over what the role of a moderator is. Maybe we arent needed
I was under the assumption that it is PG in the General forum and gloves off in the WR.
PM sent with some super duper secret info
OOO's x XXX's

[timshufflin]

Yes Orlando, the stuff without the symbols should have been gone. What I'm saying, in that regard, is that I either A. screwed up and missed them or B. I simply couldn't keep up with the rash of sh!t spewing from his fingers.

I have NO quams with anything you've ever moderated. So you must be doing it right or at least to my liking and others.

[Orlando]

There is no way you can watch the forum 24-7 or should you have to
If any of my comments came across that I was criticising they way you run the forum I certainly didnt mean them to be taken that way and I apologize.
Amazing what one loose canon can do,I'm really tired of all this.
I'm going to go and work on a garand for awhile :)

[timshufflin]

I just assembled and parked two. Now, FOOTBALL!

[paid4c4]

Tim, IMHO this forum runs pretty darn well as is. We don't need a lot of changes or additional censoring, lets not use the "shotgun" approach to deal with one person who has chosen to act inappropriately on the forum. Instead use the 35 Whalen approach, one shot with a large punch which takes out the offender by banning him forever. To those who feel the offender has some type of 1st amendment rights I beg to differ. This forum is a privately owned communicative website and comes under the regulation and rules of the owner. While I don't like censorship it becomes unfortunately necessary when some forum users choose to purposely violate the rules and offend or threaten others. This type of conduct is akin to being a "Cyber Bully." If you think this type of conduct doesn't bother you, you may want to reconsider as anything which disrupts or hurts others on this forum hurts all of us who use it and enjoy the friendship of the other members. This entire subject has disrupted the intent of the forum away from firearms, shooting and other gun related activity. We all know what the right answer is here be it painful to some, the offending member needs to be banned on a permanent basis.
Please refer to Pappy's Rules #1&3 which covers this situation to a T.
Bill