Let's talk about barrel tension

[singleshotcajun]

I read a lot about setting appropriate barrel tension on Garand barrels. From what I can gather there needs to be around thirty pounds of downward pull on the barrel at the stock ferrule to lower band . Just how critical is this to accuracy and consistency ? My Danish return in a Boyd's stock never had this tension and at one time shot outstanding albeit occasionally inconsistent. Also does anyone still apply Shoe Goo in the gap between the barrel and upper hand guard after removing the sheet metal cage and screwing and epoxying the upper band ? It is my understanding that using Shoe goo or some other elastic urethane product to unitize the hand guard wood to barrel was at one time common practice.I'm not building a JCG match rifle but a Service rifle. Your thoughts please.

[Punch The Clown]

Funny you should bring this up. A couple of years ago Tim was dicking around with an adjustable tensioner built to replace the lower band but that project never left the talking stages. Instead of the 30# number he was going for the turn the screw until it groups best/stops stringing idea. The stock channel needed to be relieved and the stock ferrule had to be lowered in the stock. I don't know why the Garand wants downward pressure while everyone else seems to use upward-which is easier to do and I don't understand why it shouldn't dampen harmonics as well. Quite honestly there are only a few guys on the forum that shoot well enough for it to make a difference-Canes, Orlando and a couple of others. Stu

[canes7]

My guess is the force, being upward or downward, reduces barrel vibration. It's kinda the same theroy as playing with the back triggerguard screw on 03's to put more pressure on the end of the barrel.

Anyway, all this stuff (i.e. - gas lock screw stopping at 6:00, barrel tension...etc.) won't make a difference at JCG matches as Punchy said. The gains you get from things like this show at longer ranges and only after you have worked out other, more basic, items like position, loads, trigger control and breathing. All too often you find new shooters trying to tweak their equipment and overlook themselves. I have and I bet most of us have been guilty of that.

Moral to the story: Don't be a gear queer, learn to shoot.

[singleshotcajun]

Latley I've read some of Bart Bobbbits notes on match preparing the Garand and according to him the downward pressure is a must. I'll try it when I get my receiver with new barrel back(sending it tommorow) I'll start by lowering the stock ferrule a bit. The rifle in question was purchased from Jim Thompson(another noted Garand author) it had the upper handguard unitized but had no downward pressure on the barrel. My full blown match prepared Garand with a heavy Kreiger barrel has a good bit of downward force on the barrel and it is one of the best shooting rifles I own. This rifle shoots right along with my two National Match AR rifles, nearly pont for point.

[timshufflin]

I think there is merit to the downward barrel tension theory but I cannot prove it because I have not done the work required to do so. We need a mechanical trigger, serious bench mount device that does not allow for rifle movement in the least, and ONE rifle that we can control both scenarios and isolate exactly one thing, downward pressure. I hear all the theory, I hear all the opinions but I aint seen the evidence.

[canes7]

All I have is anecdotal evidence. I believe that without the tools you speak of and access to a range that'll let you shoot out to 1k yards (OK, at least 500) there will be no way of proving this theroy.

[singleshotcajun]

Meanwhile heres a little eyecandy of the Winchester. I bought this one two years ago on Auction Arms from a fellow in Arizona. The story was that an Airforce Armorer built it. I know buy the rifle not the story but the components were worth the price, got it for 850.00. The barrel was as new and the barrel channel in the GI stock needed a little whitteling but it is a real shooter and feel like it was a steal. I did de bling the stainless barrel with Brownell's Alumihyde in flat black, hate the look of stainless.

http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/cajuncj/Winchester%20NM%20Garand/

In my local non CMP affiliated club we shoot at 100 yards using less than desirable targets for iron sights. Even at only 100 yards any little bit more consistency is helpful. When I shoot in Service match I usually am shooting against a few National match AR rifles and when I beat one with a Garand it is special.

[Prince Humperdink]

SSC,Nice Rifle!I have a question,is the crown on that Rifle flat?
Ryan

[singleshotcajun]

The crown on that Kreiger is nearly flat. It does not have a traditional crown. Looks weird but shoots great.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/cajuncj/Winchester%20NM%20Garand/IMG_5192.jpg

[canes7]

So I just tore down my JCG Garand, there is exactly 0 downward tension on the barrel. How do I know this? There is a gap there. As a matter of fact the lower band isn't even snug on the barrel. The rifle hammers pretty good. So for 200 yard shooting I am convinced all this is BS. I think I'll get a new stock set, barrel band and stock ferrule to test the results.

Anyone have anything to donate to the cause? All my small parts went to the M1FV thing we did a couple years ago!

[timshufflin]

Take your stock ferule and bend the lips down and out. Take your lower band and squeeze the toes in slightly.

[canes7]

Take your stock ferule and bend the lips down and out. Take your lower band and squeeze the toes in slightly.

Pull down on my lips and camel toe the lower band? Got it!

[mikebaker1129]

Singleshot where do you shoot at ?

[singleshotcajun]

I shoot right on the coast ,Texas City Municipal Shooting Range.
http://www.texas-city-tx.org/ShootingRange/ShootingRange.htm
We boast one of the finest regulation skeet ranges(if not the most difficult) in the state.It is a fine safe place to shoot and it is almost always WINDY. Our Smallbore matches are interesting due to the wind.If you do not have a windage adjustable rear sight on your .22 rifle it can get real interesting.

[canes7]

I ordered a new stock set from Dupage today, when I took my JCG Garand apart I remembered that the receiver swam in the stock when I first assembeled it. I still need to get a new lower band, it's not just the tension problem but the one I have is really loose fitting on the barrel. I'm also going to setup the front handguard the way everyone says I should, with the lock stopping at 6:00 and just a small amount of play. So with fixing these problems I should be shooting 110's instead of 98's!

[singleshotcajun]

Rather than bend anything why not fit a shim around the horseshoe of the stock ferrule ? When I get my barreled action back I think I may try that.Thinking of Duracoating the hardware(matte black to match the gas cylinder) so with the shim epoxied to the ferrule and the ferrule Duracoated it would not be obvious.

[timshufflin]

Rather than bend anything why not fit a shim around the horseshoe of the stock ferrule ? When I get my barreled action back I think I may try that.Thinking of Duracoating the hardware(matte black to match the gas cylinder) so with the shim epoxied to the ferrule and the ferrule Duracoated it would not be obvious.


Because I don't like my non stainless painted is why I don't shim. Now, that said, there is some hope of shimming and sanding wood to get fitment as well.

[Orlando]

I don't know why the Garand wants downward pressure while everyone else seems to use upward-which is easier to do and I don't understand why it shouldn't dampen harmonics as well.

The M1A as well as the Garand seem to benafit from tension , here is my take on this:
The barrel whips when fired and you want it to come back to the same position afetr each shot fired or accuracy will suffer. Tension on the barrel will bring the barrel back to the same position shot after shot
I dont know anything about 30lbs of pressure, I just squeeze the forearm and the action together. If it springs back thats good enough for me.
Heres a few things that I can think of that will keep you from having the spring back tension:
Barrel channel to narrow and barrel is resting on wood
Rear handgaurd needs wood removed off the bottom
Stock ferrule needs lowered
Loose lock up

All this being said I have seen some rifles with hardly any tension shoot really well??

This is all just my opinion , your opinion may vary

[canes7]

We'll see O. My JCG rifle had just about everything wrong with it according to "common knowledge". The receiver swam in the stock, there was no barrel tension, the front handguard was too loose.... but I still held a 98%+ average for both orone phases of the JCG match. So with correcting these things I'm interested to see where I shoot now.

[melloman]

That is a sweet looking rifle - love the stock. I think that it looks better with the barrel painted to match. Funny, I don't mind the stainless look on my M1A but it doesn't look right to me on a Garand. Good shooting!

[singleshotcajun]

Got my barreled receiver back from Tim Schufflin in record time. The fit of my Berretta gas cylinder to the Criterion barrel was perfect so no Locktite bearing fit green was needed this time. Fit the hand guard and lower band(still screwed and glued) to the barrel with the green Locktite and Shogoo,just can't help myself on that. I found that the stock ferrule and lower band fit was terribly tight, perhaps variances in manufacture caused this. I bent the U on the stock ferrule a bit downward and ground clearance on the lower band.I started to and maybe should have removed the stock ferrule and lowered it but it's screw is peened to the point of having to ruin it to remove it so I choose this method, I can always buy the necessary parts and try it the other way if needed. This poor shopped picture is not my lower band but one I found online and edited to show where I had to Dremel. Now I have good pull down .Also removed wood from the bottom of the lower hand guard and Shogooed it to the barrel.Now there is a minimum of 1/8" clearance between the butt stock and the lower hand guard. Overall I am pleased with the project thus far and if it will ever stop raining a range report is coming .


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/cajuncj/th_lowerband_1.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/cajuncj/?action=view&current=lowerband_1.jpg)

[Orlando]

You may be cutting on the wrong piece. Can you post a picture of the stock ferrule as it sets on the stock . Take it looking from the end.
I have seen ferrules that set to high and need lowered.This will let you have the tension you are looking for as you now have clearence for barrel to move

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/Boyds%20Stock%20Rework/DSC00574.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/Boyds%20Stock%20Rework/DSC00578.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/Boyds%20Stock%20Rework/DSC00585.jpg

[singleshotcajun]

I'll try to get some pictures. Lowering the stock ferrule would likely have been the best course of action. To do that I would have simply ground off the brad on the mounting screw to get it off and then do the wood work. I'm going to try it as is first. As it sits I can compress the barrel about 1/32" may be more and when released it springs back up.The barrel channel in the Boyd's stock was relieved many years ago.Back then I at least knew that much but the lower hand guard was in a terrible bind to the butt stock.

[Orlando]

Is there a decent space between the lower band and stock ferrule?

[singleshotcajun]

Yes.At rest, a playing card(essential tool for gunsmiffin;) ) will fit into the gap easily.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/cajuncj/Card%20shot/th_IMG_6488.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/cajuncj/Card%20shot/?action=view&current=IMG_6488.jpg)

[Orlando]

I would mod the stock as I showed and cut the end of the stock slightly so ferrule will set back farther from the lower band, I really feel you need more gap. Just my opinion yours may vary:)

[Rick B]

I am thinking the downwards pressure is the wrench putting the barrel onto the receiver. That makes more sense to me. :) Rick B

[singleshotcajun]

I ground off the brad on the stock ferrule bolt and removed the stock ferrule. Rasped off enough wood to achieve 3/32" + in between the stock ferule and the lower band. Also lowered it a bit but not much as I have already bent the stock ferrule horseshoe down a bit.Hopefully I'll have a dry weekend to try it. Last weekend my club's special any gun/any sight Smallbore and Centerfire match got rained out so we are going to try it again this Saturday.

[Orlando]

While you are at it you may want to releave the sides of the barrel channel. (See my first pic) Make sure when barrel flexs when fired it doesnt rub the top sides of the channel

[singleshotcajun]

I ordered a new stock ferrule. I'm not in a great hurry to complete this project. I want to give this rifle every chance to shoot well. I had assumed the stock ferrule was epoxied and that is the reason I bent the horseshoe, did not want to risk ruining the stock by attempting removing the ferrule. Now, after removing the ferrule and setting it back for longitudinal clearance I cannot help but want to install a new stock ferrule and lowering it in the stock. The stock has plenty of clearance in the barrel channel, did that years ago on it. I know some may think that setting up a Garand with clearance here and tension there is obsessive but I freely admit to being obsessive.Being obsessive kind of comes with being a Machinist/Millwright match shooter and hand loader. The eccentricities of this hobby is one aspect that makes it so much fun .

[Orlando]

I do these mods to all my shooters if needed

[timshufflin]

I ordered a new stock ferrule. I'm not in a great hurry to complete this project. I want to give this rifle every chance to shoot well. I had assumed the stock ferrule was epoxied and that is the reason I bent the horseshoe, did not want to risk ruining the stock by attempting removing the ferrule. Now, after removing the ferrule and setting it back for longitudinal clearance I cannot help but want to install a new stock ferrule and lowering it in the stock. The stock has plenty of clearance in the barrel channel, did that years ago on it. I know some may think that setting up a Garand with clearance here and tension there is obsessive but I freely admit to being obsessive.Being obsessive kind of comes with being a Machinist/Millwright match shooter and hand loader. The eccentricities of this hobby is one aspect that makes it so much fun .


Ahh, I know your type :) I don't know which type I am but I have a little of everything in me. I don't believe fully that the last bit of free bore being gone will improve accuracy or that lapping bolt lugs will free up another bit of accuracy but things like barrel pressure I can buy into.

[canes7]

Ahh, I know your type :) I don't know which type I am but I have a little of everything in me. I don't believe fully that the last bit of free bore being gone will improve accuracy or that lapping bolt lugs will free up another bit of accuracy but things like barrel pressure I can buy into.

I'm convinced that it is the evenness of the wear of the lands that effect accuracy when a throat erodes. If you have one land receeding faster than the others then the bullet will endure a yaw effect when it hit the lands. If it enters the lands equally the bullet stays straighter. Same goes for muzzle wear, instead of entering the lands it's exiting. it's the only way I can rationally explain how you'll hear about all these barrels with high wear #'s that still shoot well.

Bolt lug lapping is marginal at best. All it is good for is to tell if both lugs are contacting the receiver. If they are not you'll be better off getting another bolt. You'll most likely have to lap thru the hardened part of the bolt. I do not think that this function is an accuracy gain, in my opinion is more of a reliability function.

[singleshotcajun]

I'm done, I think. Installed the stock ferrule it has been lowered and centered. According to my notoriously unreliable spring scale I have about twelve pounds of down pull at the lower band and stock ferrule. I hope to shoot it tomorrow after my clubs Service rifle and 3 P Smallbore match but the forecast calls for 85 % chance of thunderstorms.
Anyway the weather finally faired off for some decent picture taking yesterday afternoon. Since this rifles main purpose is Bug out/SHTF the barrel date is only fitting

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/cajuncj/911%20Garand/IMG_6877.jpg
All the pictures
http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/cajuncj/911%20Garand/

[timshufflin]

I will wish the best for your outing sir.

[singleshotcajun]

Thanks Tim. It shoots great thus far. Function tested it last weekend and set the Schuster valve for HXP. I shot after a match and set the zero for point of aim at fifty yards. I just shot Unsupported to make sure it will be bug out ready. Since I already made it non JCG match legal by screwing and gluing the upper hand guard I decided to bed the receiver. I finally figured out why the experts have you create clearance from the rear leg to the rear sight.................this is so you will have somewhere to pry if needed and not harm your bedding. I used grease for a release agent and the bedding still grabbed it really Hard. Used Belzona super metal epoxy and it came out well.Hope to send some rounds downrange this weekend and see how it shoots farther out.

[Orlando]

Remove trigger assembly flip rifle over in your lap and stick a wooden dowel or brass rod inside of the receiver and tap on the dowel, etc to remove the action out of the stock. Better than prying on it. JMO

[singleshotcajun]

I tried the butt stock bump and the butt stock slap to no avail. Admittedly I did not try a brass or wooden punch as you suggested, next time. Most of my training and work experience is as a shop Machinist but for the last ten years I have done mainly field Machinist or Millwright work. This air gap that presents itself for a wedge is hard for a Millwright to resist utilizing. I used a one inch wide bronze wedge and the "little" hammer to get the receiver moving.Most match prepared Garands that I have had any dealings with have had this Clearance. Surely there is a reason for it.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/cajuncj/Winchester%20NM%20Garand/IMG_5175-2.jpg

[Orlando]

There is a very good reason for the releived area just not the reason you are using it for :)
The cut isnt just for bedded stocks but should be present on wood stocks also. Hold up a USGI stock to the light you should see a small amount of light. The area isnt supposed to have much wood removed just approx the thickness of a piece of paper approx 1 " all the way to the rear of the receiver legs

Here is a rightup by a Gus Fisher, Retried Armorer that explains the reasoning

There is something very specific about the fit of the top of stocks for M1 Garand receivers. From the rear of the rear receiver legs going forward, there was a lot of contact for the bedding of the receiver. From the rear of the receiver heel going forward, it is a very different thing. The rear of the receiver heel going forward for about 1” to 1 1/8” is SUPPPOSED to contact the stock and then there is NO contact of the receiver heel as it goes forward until the rear of the receiver legs. IOW, you should be able to just see a very little clearance and maybe only a line of light between the top of the stock and the receiver heel WHEN you take the trigger mech out. (If you leave the trigger mech in when checking this, the hammer will cause you to think there is no clearance there.) OK, so WHY was the bedding deliberately set up for the front of the receiver and only the last 1” to 1 1/8” of the receiver heel? There was a twofold reason for that.

The first part of the reason is when the trigger mechanism is locked down by the trigger guard, M1 Garand receiver is pulled down on the top by being “sprung” a little between the high points of the front of the receiver bedding and the rear of the heel of the stock. Think of the receiver being bent so slightly you can’t notice it, but it is bent in a very slight concave curve. (Think of an upside down “U” in case you are like me and don’t always remember the difference between concave and convex. Grin.) By bending the receiver in that very slight concave curve, the heel of the receiver is held tightly to the stock and for good reason. As the bolt comes back in firing and hits the rear of the receiver, there is a LOT of twisting force applied the heel of the receiver. That means the heel has a tendency to lift up on the right side and dig in on the left side. We need GOOD contact of the entire last 1” to 1 1/8” of the receiver heel on top of the stock to counter those twisting forces so the wood stock is not battered down too soon.

The second part of the reason for the contact of the M1 Garand receiver heel being like this has to do with functioning. Seventh round stoppages were most often caused when a new type of boring was done on Garand receivers and the inside shoulder of the receiver behind the barrel (on the right side) was cut too much. MOST Garand receivers were corrected for that by welding more material in them. This was the most common cause of the dreaded “7th Round Stoppages” until the Arsenal got that corrected. HOWEVER, there is another reason for 7th round or other stoppages on Garand receivers and that is if there is NOT the clearance on top of the stock between the rear of the receiver legs and the last 1” to 1 1/8” for the receiver heel mentioned here. When there is not the clearance we have been talking about, the receiver can not be “sprung” in a downward concave curve and THAT causes stoppages as well. We almost never find this on G.I. stocks, but it is QUITE common to find there is not proper clearance in this area on COMMERCIAL Garand stocks. If your commercial stock hits the receiver heel where it is not supposed to, the easy fix is to lightly drawfile the top of the stock in that area until there is a very slight clearance between the top of the stock and the receiver heel between the rear of the receiver legs and the last 1” to 1 1/8” of the stock. Now, I KNOW this may be hard to believe, but time and time again I have “fixed” rifles from getting stoppages that could not be traced to other mechanical reasons by filing that clearance in place. When NM Garands are glass bedded to stocks, this clearance HAS to be put in them as well for both reasons mentioned

[singleshotcajun]

Thanks for that information Orlando. I always did this because noted experts called it out in list of things to do but never really questioned it. Setting up rifles to shoot well and learning how to do these things is a life long process.We all go through stages and sometimes it seems that the more you know the less you know. I do know that setting up a Garand is an art form.

[timshufflin]

Thank goodness you got on this one Orlando, and not a minute too soon.

[Orlando]

Thank goodness you got on this one Orlando, and not a minute too soon.

?????????????

[singleshotcajun]

You might not believe this but I have been accused of being obsessive ;).

[Orlando]

You might not believe this but I have been accused of being obsessive ;).

You and me both brother

[timshufflin]

?????????????

The receiver prying in the stock/receiver gap :)

[Orlando]

The receiver prying in the stock/receiver gap :)

Ya , that made me cringe

[singleshotcajun]

Made me cringe too. Boys, She is a Shooter Very pleased. This SHTF rifle will be coming to match.