Real Deal or Reproduction??

[Orlando]

What you think?
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-24947587498613_2193_21815334

[dogboysdad]

I'd say repro.

[timshufflin]

reproduction

[Orlando]

Ya thats my thoughts, vendor is selling them as Post War bands but they look cast to me.
Unfortunatly I didnt look at the picture very close before I ordered them

[dogboysdad]

Technically, "made last week in China" is "post war".

[Rick B]

Cast reproductions. Rick B

[Orlando]

I'm surprised as the vendor has a good rep. I contacted him but havent heard anything back. Maybe its a honest mistake. We shall see

Product Description
M1 Garand Flat lower band, Springfield production, post war, Excellent condition. These are the second variation manufactured post WWII.

[Rick B]

SA had a two part welded during the post war era. Rick B

[Prince Humperdink]

Almost looks like the same casting marks as the SAI M1A parts have.Perhaps They were for the SAI M1 production,therefore a Person may conclude that They are indeed "Post War SA production"...just the wrong SA.

[Orlando]

Heres a update, these bands are from 1967. Heres the package they came out of
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/misc/1967castlowerband.jpg

[Rick B]

SA wasn't making them anymore and it appears they contracted out. Made in California where they always try something new and then force it down the throats of the rest of the U.S. :) Rick B

[deputy85]

Maybe the bag is as phoney as the bands?

[The Garand Guy]

If that's the package they really came from, I would say they were authentic. Many vendors made parts for the military by different means. SA brazed them, but they were making M14 parts in 1967, so most likely they contracted them out.

[Orlando]

Just got a reply from Bill Ricca, they are the real deal

[Rick B]

They are cast reproductions or contract but they are not anywhere near the orignals being cast. They were contracted as replacements and not war nor to specs of the U.S G.I. ones if that makes sense. To a shooter it is fine but to a collector their incorrect. It can boil down to how someone views it and both may be correct when you think about it. Rick B

[Orlando]

This is the response from Bill Ricca

They are legit. The contract was from fiscal years 1965 & 66. The maker was:

Bellmore Johnson Tool Co.
Hamden, Ct

[Punch The Clown]

The original link isn't working for me so I can't see the pic. Anyway, here is a pic of a band I found on the CMP forum. It is identical to the one that came on my 5.8 SA from the CMP. Anyway, mine is worn so I know it wasn't CMP replacement metal. Going through vci packaged bands at Tony Giacobbe's we came across some that were identical to mine. Bill Ricca said he has seen them before also. Stu

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/band.jpg

[Orlando]

Stu
These dont have the circle on top like yours, here is a front and back pic of them
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/misc/Picture498.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/misc/Picture499.jpg

[Punch The Clown]

Bill, thanks for posting the pics. They do look cast no doubt. Mine has that little circle on the top as you see in the pic but the face has the familiar milling marks. Ever expanding knowledge base.

[The Garand Guy]

Bill Ricca is a specialist in knowing manufacturer's codes. When he says it's right, it's right!

[timshufflin]

Bill Ricca is a specialist in knowing manufacturer's codes. When he says it's right, it's right!

I'm not saying I don't believe him, I'm just saying I don't believe any one person. That may frustrate some, but I like my information from several sources. I've really enjoyed this thread. Neat information from everyone and kind of a funny room to have it in.

[Dave]

The original link isn't working for me so I can't see the pic. Anyway, here is a pic of a band I found on the CMP forum. It is identical to the one that came on my 5.8 SA from the CMP. Anyway, mine is worn so I know it wasn't CMP replacement metal. Going through vci packaged bands at Tony Giacobbe's we came across some that were identical to mine. Bill Ricca said he has seen them before also. Stu

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/Stumedic/band.jpg

I've had bands like this one pictured come on past CMP rifles. Always figured they were replacements for rebuilds.
Also once got a fake WRA hammer on a CMP rifle. All sorts of stuff can make it "into the system".

[Orlando]

I'm not saying I don't believe him, I'm just saying I don't believe any one person. That may frustrate some, but I like my information from several sources.

Normally I agree with that statement Tim but Bill Ricca has acsess on info to research contracts on aprox 200,000 items from WWII and many from the mid 1960's to approx. 2003.

If anybody has the contract number its a good chance he would be able to find out who made it when. He has identifified around 15 fake contracts on the Auction Boards. Some fakers are now wrapping stuff and sealing them with contract numbers.

[timshufflin]

Normally I agree with that statement Tim but Bill Ricca has acsess on info to research contracts on aprox 200,000 items from WWII and many from the mid 1960's to approx. 2003.

If anybody has the contract number its a good chance he would be able to find out who made it when. He has identifified around 15 fake contracts on the Auction Boards. Some fakers are now wrapping stuff and sealing them with contract numbers.


If Mr. Ricca doesn't have the contract numbers that doesn't mean that some other contract does not exist, it only means that Ricca does not have it. UNLESS, of course, the Contract Ferry can certify that Ricca has EVERY single contract number.

[Orlando]

Absolutly Tim
He never nor I suggested any different.



The fakers are smart enough or dont have info to put the right item with the contact number

[Rick B]

Punches was normal and not cast but stamped. These replacement and that is all they are is replacements were not military made for WWII or Korea. I don’t care if the Government contracted them out you are going to have a hard time selling them as originals because they are not.

I fully understand Bill verifying them as correct but they are not Garand Originals that has been my whole point. If they are considered correct than any manufacture even today has to be said to be correct. Just because a nice package and numbers were dedicated to the contract for REPLACEMENTS is found doesn’t make them correct or real. To a shooter they are great but we all know to a collector these are not Original Garand bands.

Springfield Armory makes all M14 parts now since they are not able to get ahold of them. These bands are the same thing and cannot be considered original equipment. That is all I am saying. Does this make sense? Rick B

[timshufflin]

Punches was normal and not cast but stamped. These replacement and that is all they are is replacements were not military made for WWII or Korea. I don’t care if the Government contracted them out you are going to have a hard time selling them as originals because they are not.

I fully understand Bill verifying them as correct but they are not Garand Originals that has been my whole point. If they are considered correct than any manufacture even today has to be said to be correct. Just because a nice package and numbers were dedicated to the contract for REPLACEMENTS is found doesn’t make them correct or real. To a shooter they are great but we all know to a collector these are not Original Garand bands.

Springfield Armory makes all M14 parts now since they are not able to get ahold of them. These bands are the same thing and cannot be considered original equipment. That is all I am saying. Does this make sense? Rick B

Rick, I fully understand what you mean, I think, but I'm not sure you have explained it as it should be.

Are you saying that the government contracted out for replacement parts to be made but that;
A. Some of the contract parts were never used by the military under any circumstance.
B. The parts were simply replacement parts and never original equipment design/style/or look

Regarding "B", that is to say the lower band, in this instance, fit like a lower band, looked like a lower band, was made to military specs like a lower band BUT was never used as original equipment and had some details of design that were different than original equipment.

[Orlando]

No doesnt make sense to me, how are they any different than any other parts that were made by subcontractors
They made many Garand spare parts in this time frame as we had Garands in Vietnam and had Garands in National Guard units.
I understand they arent "correct" for any original builds but I cannot see how anyone can call them fake. They are not modern day made replacements made for civilian use ,.
I bought them to build rifles with and the fit is tight, they should work great

[timshufflin]

No doesnt make sense to me, how are they any different than any other parts that were made by subcontractors
They made many Garand spare parts in this time frame as we had Garands in Vietnam and had Garands in National Guard units.
I understand they arent "correct" for any original builds but I cannot see how anyone can call them fake. They are not modern day made replacements made for civilian use ,.
I bought them to build rifles with and the fit is tight, they should work great

They are USGI, I would think BUT they are not parts that can ever be considered correct. Subcontractors like Hart made parts that were actually installed on original rifles from the factory. Other subcontractors made parts that were not actually installed on original rifles from the factory. If your part is USGI, great, but that doesn't make it any different from any other commercial part that was never installed on a rifle. The quality of the USGI after market part may be better than a commercial after market part but the opposite might also be true.

Remember, in most cases EVERYTHING that the private sector makes is better than what a government contractor will make. Those lower bands on Punch the Clowns rifle, to me they are junk because I don't like a great big giant casting sprue on the top of my band. I know that Punch's band will work the same, function the same, but it looks like hell. I see much better lower bands made today by commercial interests.

[Orlando]

I agree, they are USGI replacements and not correct for any rifle as original. I thought that was a given as they were made until the late 60's :)

I was just trying to find out if these were actually modern made or not as they were advertised as repalcements
If I paid for earlier made replacement parts and was sent modern day commercial made I would have returned them as thats not what I was lead to believe

I had never seen cast parts except for madern day made. Atleast I learned from all this and hopefully someone else did to

[timshufflin]

I agree, they are USGI replacements and not correct for any rifle as original. I thought that was a given as they were made until the late 60's :)


See, that's the nuance in this. Some would consider these less then USGI, that's all. I have one other question on this, did the maker of these bands ever get PAID by the US government for making these bands? If the bands were made for a contract that they were never paid for, they would not remotely be considered USGI.

If the US government did pay for these bands, they have again proven to me just how stupid they are.

[Rick B]

I have never ever seen these on any Garand rifle. These may very well be faked along with the package or were rejected or never used.

You initial question was are these real or reproductions. I still stand by Reproductions but they are real as we see them so they have to be real :)

"Example" General Motors builts a 1967 Corvette. In 1990 they license someone to make a replacement. Is it real or reproduction? It is reproduction but O.E.M considered. It is not original nor honestly correct but it is all some can afford so it works. Rick B

[Punch The Clown]

SA and WRA both made replacement parts including barrels that were never used on a newly built rifle but were reserved as replacement parts. It's obvious as the barrel dates don't coincide with M1 production years. I wouldn't call them reproduction though.

[Rick B]

re·pro·duc·tion (rpr-dkshn)
n.
1. The act of reproducing or the condition or process of being reproduced.
2. Something reproduced, especially in the faithfulness of its resemblance to the form and elements of the original: a fine reproduction of a painting by Matisse.
3. Biology The sexual or asexual process by which organisms generate new individuals of the same kind; procreation.

[Orlando]

I asked Gus Fischer if he has ever seen run across these installed on rifles. Since he is a retired Armorer so I figured he would know. His response:

" Yes, I have seen them on DCM and CMP rifles that were of the 60's rebuild era. I have also seen them used on some NM Garands while I was on active duty."

[timshufflin]

All I care about is if the US military paid to have those made and delivered. If so, they are USGI, if they were not paid for and delivered, they are just as fake as if you purchased a Griffin & Howe M1C mount, made today, and called it USGI.

[Orlando]

From everything I have gathered they were made and used as replacement parts for Garand rebuilds
I'm not being a smart a## but who else would have paid for them??

[Rick B]

What the HELL I can not thank in this thread and was able to earlier but not now. I was trying to thank Orlando for researching these. Oh well hopefully he feels the Love, :) Rick B

[Punch The Clown]

All I care about is if the US military paid to have those made and delivered. If so, they are USGI, if they were not paid for and delivered, they are just as fake as if you purchased a Griffin & Howe M1C mount, made today, and called it USGI.

Only 1 option left-DNA. If we can find some epithelials on the bands and trace the maternal lineage we may determine if someone employed by the Govt. handled them. As far as the who paid for them dilemma-I'm working on that. Off topic, should I use Oklahoma crude base grease or Pennsylvania? I heard that the Penn. is richer in paraffin.

[Rick B]

Just see if they smell like beer or pot and you will know a Government worker touched them, lol. Rick B

[timshufflin]

Just see if they smell like beer or pot and you will know a Government worker touched them, lol. Rick B


THAT is funny sh*t!