Stock looseness question

[JTMcC]

I know it's a basic question, but I don't know so I'll ask. I did search with no luck.

How much play between action and stock is considered acceptable in a "regular shooter" type rifle?

I'm not talking NM, just a sound rifle that would see quite a bit of use. My gun seems to rattle quite a bit to me but I don't know how much is considered normal.
I can grab the stock in one hand and the rear of the action with the other and move back & forth maybe 1/32". Same with the front. I haven't measued it to the thousanth but can if I need to.
How tight should the trigger group latch up in a proper stock?

Are the shim kits that I've seen for sale respectable, or junk?

JT

[Prince Humperdink]

I know it's a basic question, but I don't know so I'll ask. I did search with no luck.

How much play between action and stock is considered acceptable in a "regular shooter" type rifle?

I'm not talking NM, just a sound rifle that would see quite a bit of use. My gun seems to rattle quite a bit to me but I don't know how much is considered normal.
I can grab the stock in one hand and the rear of the action with the other and move back & forth maybe 1/32". Same with the front. I haven't measued it to the thousanth but can if I need to.
How tight should the trigger group latch up in a proper stock?

Are the shim kits that I've seen for sale respectable, or junk?

JT

How does it shoot right now?If it is accurate,then it is ok.I have seen tight Rifles shoot poorly and loose ones shoot great.

[jak]

The rifle should not rattle around in the stock at all. It will really affect accuracy.
It should take some force to lock up the trigger guard.
How worn are the locking lugs on the trigger guard ?
If the wood is really compressed under the trigger housing, I guess you can shim it. I never had that problem so I can't help you in that area.
I'm sure some of the other more knowledgeable guys here will chime in.

[Dave]

The action should not have free movement when its clamped into the stock. If it shoots ok enough for you then no big deal, but it will get worse.
I have never used the shim kits myself but did shim the stock on one of my shooters and it really helped. I got way more consistancy with less flyers. I still have that rifle and its become my main "beat on" gun and the one that gets most of the use by new shooters who ask to try one.
It was an older CMP woodless gun from years ago. I stuck it in a nice looking USGI birch stock set but lockup was weak. The stock set looked great on this gun, and I had matching handguards, so something needed to be done. All I did was used wood veneer tape on the bottom of the trigger cutout and along the two receiver leg cuts inside. You can buy it at most home improvement stores. Its nothing more than a roll of thin wood veneer with a glue backing on it. Cut the size you need to fit on the stock trigger housing "rail", lay it on and use a clothes iron to heat it up. The heat melts the glue. Get it good and hot, but not "burn it" hot, and the glue seeps into the wood fibers of the stock. Let it cool and harden, trim the sides with a razor, stain it to match the stock and you can barely tell its there. This stock also had some fore/aft movement, so I did the same thing on the inside receiver rail cuts, both sides behind the receiver legs. On those I could'nt fit the iron inside the stock so I just used a propane torch and a piece of small bar stock, heated it up and used that as my iron. Darn thing fits as tight as a match grade stock now and I did'nt have to sand the shims, the fit was perfect as is. Cheap and quick fix that saved a great stock set, and its been on there for years without any problems.
Heck, if you want to try this on yours shoot me a PM or Email and I'll send you some. I bought a whole roll and only did this one rifle, got plenty left over :)

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[timshufflin]

...and if you are getting real bad back and forth play, you don't only need to shim the trigger group pads but may consider adding filler material to the internal cuts inside the stock to get the horizontal play out. If the thing shoots good enough for your needs though, why bother? This is about fun and not about looking for something to fix :)

[LEAD POISON]

Rubber shims? or wood shims? I got a couple of loose ones.

[melloman]

You can also use a hair dryer or heat gun to apply the veneer. I have a stock with fore and aft play in it. Could you show or explain further where you added the veneer to eliminate that movement - the repair is unclear to me. BTW that is a fine looking repair to the trigger cutout!

[Punch The Clown]

Dave, that veneer repair looks fine. For the life of me I can't figure out why why that disqualifies you from JCG matches.

[JTMcC]

How does it shoot right now?If it is accurate,then it is ok.I have seen tight Rifles shoot poorly and loose ones shoot great.


I haven't shot it off the bench, but it shoots "minute of rock" right now at ranges of wherever the rock is : )

J

[JTMcC]

Those were informative replies and I appreciate all of them. Dave's post & pictures especially.

I've got a pretty decent perspective on it now. Like I said I'm not shooting for NM type accuracy and have a couple bolt guns that shoot better than I can hold, but only actually handling two M-1's, mine and my Dad's, I didn't have a good idea of what's workable and what's not.
In the end I'd like to have a rifle that's reasonably accurate in service rifle form and very reliable.
It looks like I might do some experimenting with shimming because I'd like to use the wood I have.

One more question for those who have used shims, do they hold up long term or do they compress?

J

[JTMcC]

...and if you are getting real bad back and forth play, you don't only need to shim the trigger group pads but may consider adding filler material to the internal cuts inside the stock to get the horizontal play out. If the thing shoots good enough for your needs though, why bother? This is about fun and not about looking for something to fix :)


I'll keep that in mind, fore and aft play is about half of the vertical play.
I understand the sentiment but I'm not stressin here, I enjoy pidling around with it and looking for a small amount of improvement in fit, when I have the time. That is kind of fun for me. I'm sure not obsessed, and not expecting more than the old girl is capable of.

Thanks,
J

[Dave]

You can also use a hair dryer or heat gun to apply the veneer. I have a stock with fore and aft play in it. Could you show or explain further where you added the veneer to eliminate that movement - the repair is unclear to me. BTW that is a fine looking repair to the trigger cutout!

Wish I had a better picture of the inside but I don't, and its currently buried in the back of the safe after a few winter cleaning sessions. :)
The bottom application is easy. The one inside required a bit of patience. Clamp the stock upright in a padded vise. Cut strips about 1/4" wide and long enough to go on the vertical cuts that the back receiver legs rest against. Lay the strips in place and apply hot steel. A heat gun or hair drier will not work as it will just blow the pieces away which are hard enough to keep still and in place already. Also, the veneer comes in a roll so it has a curved shape. You need a hot flat iron to press it fully onto the stock and hold it there while the glue fully melts. A clothes iron works great on the bottom but not on the inside. I had to use a piece of small bar stock square rod and had to heat it several times to make sure the glue fully melted. A screwdriver shank thats square would also work if its long enough and wide enough. If you look at the pic, the arrows point to where you add the shim inside, all along the cut. You can just see the end of it in the pic. Once the glue cools, trim the excess veneer and glue (it oozes out the sides). On this stock, adding one piece to each side gave a very tight fit fore/aft as is. Its possible though that this might make it too tight and you might have to file or sand the veneer thinner.
As you can see in the pics, I have a whole roll of this stuff which I will never use up in my lifetime. If anyone wants to try it, send me your address and I mail you some strips.

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[Prince Humperdink]

For up and down movement I just use strips of refrigerator magnets and stick Them to the lips of the housing,afterwards I usually have to give it a good smack to look triggerguard and You can remove them in seconds.

[melloman]

[QUOTE=Dave;22565]Wish I had a better picture of the inside but I don't, and its currently buried in the back of the safe after a few winter cleaning sessions. :)
The bottom application is easy. The one inside required a bit of patience. Clamp the stock upright in a padded vise. Cut strips about 1/4" wide and long enough to go on the vertical cuts that the back receiver legs rest against. Lay the strips in place and apply hot steel. A heat gun or hair drier will not work as it will just blow the pieces away which are hard enough to keep still and in place already. Also, the veneer comes in a roll so it has a curved shape. You need a hot flat iron to press it fully onto the stock and hold it there while the glue fully melts. A clothes iron works great on the bottom but not on the inside. I had to use a piece of small bar stock square rod and had to heat it several times to make sure the glue fully melted. A screwdriver shank thats square would also work if its long enough and wide enough. If you look at the pic, the arrows point to where you add the shim inside, all along the cut. You can just see the end of it in the pic. Once the glue cools, trim the excess veneer and glue (it oozes out the sides). On this stock, adding one piece to each side gave a very tight fit fore/aft as is. Its possible though that this might make it too tight and you might have to file or sand the veneer thinner.
As you can see in the pics, I have a whole roll of this stuff which I will never use up in my lifetime. If anyone wants to try it, send me your address and I mail you some strips.[QUOTE]


Thanks for the more detailed explanation - I am a visual learner and a picture is golden to my understanding. I have lots of wood edge band, thanks for the offer.

[singleshotcajun]

Dave, that veneer repair looks fine. For the life of me I can't figure out why why that disqualifies you from JCG matches.

My thoughts exactly. You are not forced to shoot bolt action rifles with loose action screws in Vintage rifle matches.

[LEAD POISON]

[QUOTE=Dave;22565]Wish I had a better picture of the inside but I don't, and its currently buried in the back of the safe after a few winter cleaning sessions. :)
The bottom application is easy. The one inside required a bit of patience. Clamp the stock upright in a padded vise. Cut strips about 1/4" wide and long enough to go on the vertical cuts that the back receiver legs rest against. Lay the strips in place and apply hot steel. A heat gun or hair drier will not work as it will just blow the pieces away which are hard enough to keep still and in place already. Also, the veneer comes in a roll so it has a curved shape. You need a hot flat iron to press it fully onto the stock and hold it there while the glue fully melts. A clothes iron works great on the bottom but not on the inside. I had to use a piece of small bar stock square rod and had to heat it several times to make sure the glue fully melted. A screwdriver shank thats square would also work if its long enough and wide enough. If you look at the pic, the arrows point to where you add the shim inside, all along the cut. You can just see the end of it in the pic. Once the glue cools, trim the excess veneer and glue (it oozes out the sides). On this stock, adding one piece to each side gave a very tight fit fore/aft as is. Its possible though that this might make it too tight and you might have to file or sand the veneer thinner.
As you can see in the pics, I have a whole roll of this stuff which I will never use up in my lifetime. If anyone wants to try it, send me your address and I mail you some strips.[QUOTE]


Thanks for the more detailed explanation - I am a visual learner and a picture is golden to my understanding. I have lots of wood edge band, thanks for the offer.

YEAH That was excellant.Pictures are great for the mentally impared.(AHH ME)