Is this the next overblown issue?

[Roadkingtrax]

I don't understand the cause for alarm, since no data exists that can attribute failures.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=86716

here:

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=86751

[timshufflin]

I'm trying to remember where I saw a Garand bolt blow up due to not having bolt lugs within even .005" of each other, oh, I remember, never. I talked to a man a few years ago who actually was one of the folks in charge of checking bolts for the Garand during WWII, I asked if he checked for lug symmetry, the answer was no.

This being said, I do often find the condition that this poster describes (left lug gap) but I have to say, even when this happens, so what? The rifle fires and there will certainly be flex in the bolt lugs to make up for even .008" gap.

Does the CMP now have to lap in every bolt for every rifle they sell? Does every Garand being sold in every retail store, auction sale, face to face deal, gun show scenario, need to have the bolt lapped? The world is a scary place already man, now we have another way to make people even more scared.

I don't see myself jacking up my prices anytime soon to insist on bolt lapping, something the military did not even do. You can make anything safer but at some point things just become stupid.

[Roadkingtrax]

Thanks for confirming my suspicion.

The 1903 Springfield's safety lug, must have a minimum of .004" clearance. I associate the L/H lug of an M1 to act in a similar manner based on design. The M1 Receiver and Bolt, are an advancement in metallurgy and strength over the 1903.

I understand that accuracy would have more to do with it, but someone suggesting a safety risk...is going overboard. Too many commercial receivers can be the only reason it comes up.

[timshufflin]

Roadkingtrax, I'm not going to sit here and act like I have the "all knowing" skill set to confirm any suspicions BUT I will also say that this poster does NOT have the "all knowing" skill set to make this a valid issue. Frankly, it sickens me that this issue is being addressed in this manner.

Oprods flying at people
Bolt lugs ready to shear off
My God man, how can we even go on?

Add to all this that the Italians took this to the next level! The Italians shaved off parts of the M1 bolt right under the lug areas so that the bolts would work with the BM59 magazine lips. Yep, Beretta weakened the mighty Garand bolt that COULD have had left lug gap. I guess they (Beretta) just didn't care? Maybe they just weren't very smart? Perhaps they just overlooked what this poster knows to be true? Again, never heard of a failure relating to this "bolt issue", not ever.

[ordmm]

......Ah sounds like a great basis for a product liability lawsuit. One of them class action things. We would be alot safer if ALL M1 Garand rifles were recalled......Whoops, maybe I should'nt speak so loud. Knowing the anti-gunners there will be a segment on 60 minutes interviewing people with big ass holes in their heads were op-rods were inbedded. Stories of bolts flying out of guns and taking out whole rifle companies back in the day. Can see an old GI right know sitting at the bar at the VFW talking about he told J.C. Garand himself about the bolt on the Garand being unsafe. What a bunch of crap-o-la.


*****Just looked up a factoid...at one point Springfield reach production of something like 3,000 rifles per day. One would think they were not lapping bolts to receivers at that point.

[Roadkingtrax]

I like my M1's, like everything else in life.

K.I.S.S., when you start talking about lapping bolts, and drilling this and tweaking that...I personally feel it departs from the basis of the rifle design. Simple, and functional. Some tweaks are simple, and very legitimate.

Motorcycles & Cars are that way, tinkering all the time. :)

[Orlando]

I think they are just talking about on Commercial receivers

[timshufflin]

I think they are just talking about on Commercial receivers

No sir, he is not.

[timshufflin]

Okay, now I'm become a bit irritated. The guy just made a run at roadkingtrax and called him stupid. The guy also says he's not saying it's a safety issue but then says it is? I'm very lost and guess I'm just as stupid as roadkingtrax. There's talk of circular reasoning and other cool stuff.


<tbody>
"Supporting data. Ok, how's this. I tell you there is, and was setback ( not setback, manufacturing). Three different receivers with numerous bolts to try, and all showing the same ratio to the receiver lugs, 40's to post war production. I have witnesses. Check yours and ask your friends to check theirs if you have any. That will give you the data you seek. I have proof, do you have proof of your assersions ? That it is not an issue or could not become one in an emergency ? NO, you don't.

No, commercial is not the only concern or I wouldn't waste my time writing all this or trying to get it through people like you's heads. Am I not explaining it clearly enough for you? I can assure you, I am not new to shooting, or the M1 or M14. I served as a range officer for 17 years, and have built 33 M14's and an uncounted number of M1's, so I think I know a little bit about what I write. If you do not consider a gap at the left lug a matter of concern, then by all means, keep shooting in blind bliss, and good luck with that. Just don't blow smoke at me and others here and tell us it is fog rolling in.

The ordinance gauge that the military used that indexed on the receiver bridge and the lugs was my guide, and was how I determined the left lug placement was off. I took the measurements from barrel ring datum to both and subtracted to find left lug spec on the receiver. This is the data, and points directly to the manufacturing as the reason.

And for the last time, I have never yet said it was a safety risk. Go back and read it again, I said "in the event" of an emergency type situation, such as an explosion like partial out of battery, slam fire, receiver, or barrel blow-ups, etc. etc.

Which one is more important, safety or accuracy ?.....jeez, I'm done trying to relate to you. That has got to be the dumbest question ever. Accuracy Of Course. http://forums.thecmp.org/images/smilies/confused.gif So please, unless you have something to add that actually helps find more data, and doesn't spew dispersions on my character and insinuate I am making this up, then move on to someone else's threads and spread discontent there.

Hey Geeck, tell this gentleman that you were there and saw this with your own eyes. A crack big enough to throw a cat through. Then he can ask you for supporting data ! Then we can get Doc to post about all his I did with the same problem. But somehow I don't think that will satisfy him anyway. He will probably want a statement from the CMP saying that they pulled every last receiver in their inventory and put them on the ordinance gauge before selling them to the public, or at least a warning statement or instructional pamplet on how to fix this issue with them before firing. Should they do that ? Yes they should. Or I guess we can wait until some bottom feeder gets injured and the cause is traced to the left lug as having a gap and letting it fly apart, when if it had good contact, the guy might have been ok, then he sues the CMP and we all lose. Yeah, that's the ticket, we'll just let it go and not speak of it anymore. It does not exist, it does not exist, there is no supporting data, so it does not exist. Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because..................."



</tbody>

[timshufflin]

I don't think anyone is saying that there may be a few thou setback on the left lug, what I am saying is who cares?

[Roadkingtrax]

I don't feel stupid. This guy is blinded by is own bloated resume. He got personal, and no one has challenged my questions except him.

[ordmm]

Man, what is it about M14's that drive some people to anal insanity. Guess he wore out everyone on the M1A/M14 thing and now has decided to take on the M1. Might kinda be funny in a way....if I read his last post right he's saying the CMP needs to check all the rifles for the left lug issue he thinks is a problem....Given the outstanding CMP "cusomer service" I wonder how soon this gets old in Anniston when people start calling them with "left lug concerns".....LMAO

Roadkingtrax.....You tried to ask a question of "The Expert"...how dare you.....I thought yours was a good observation.

[timshufflin]

I don't feel stupid. This guy is blinded by is own bloated resume. He got personal, and no one has challenged my questions except him.

He has a bloated resume? What kind of resume is it? I'm curious as to how one gets crowned king.

[ordmm]

He has a bloated resume? What kind of resume is it? I'm curious as to how one gets crowned king.


Easy...at least for me...One time during a greivance hearing, one of the UAW board members said I was KING A-HOLE...so you see, it's easy to be crowned king. Honest.

[axemurderer]

He has a bloated resume? What kind of resume is it? I'm curious as to how one gets crowned king.


Tim

I am going to throw my 2 Mini-Gs and two Garands in the truck, drive to MI. All just so you can lap my bolt OK!

[Orlando]

Hey Tim
Never hear of Garand or M1A bolts lugs breaking but you do hear of M1 Carbine lugs shearing off.
Any idea why?

[luvmym1 13]

Hey I'm just glad this guy is around. I could have died! :p And thats why I buried both M1's in the back yard.

[timshufflin]

Hey Tim
Never hear of Garand or M1A bolts lugs breaking but you do hear of M1 Carbine lugs shearing off.
Any idea why?


Yes you do, must need lapping? On a serious note, I have been there when this happened, it was most uneventful and we probably fired the rifle a few more times with the right lug cracked. In fact, this was Colter44's rifle.

[timshufflin]

Tim

I am going to throw my 2 Mini-Gs and two Garands in the truck, drive to MI. All just so you can lap my bolt OK!


Do come, we'll lap and herald till we puke.

[Orlando]

Just seems funny that a bolt lug would break on a small rd as the carbine but not with the Garand or M1A

[Punch The Clown]

I seen an un-lapped bolt eat a rockin' chair one time.

[luvmym1 13]

Come visit us a CMP forums where we take ourselves waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to serious!

[timshufflin]

Come visit us a CMP forums where we take ourselves waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to seriously.


You can't speak very honestly there though, I tried it once.

[luvmym1 13]

A guy once asked a question about peening a barrel there once. I answered having just done it myself and within 5 minutes there was one of the all knowing correcting me. Meanwhile what I told the guy came off the CMP web site.

[timshufflin]

A guy once asked a question about peening a barrel there once. I answered having just done it myself and within 5 minutes there was one of the all knowing correcting me. Meanwhile what I told the guy came off the CMP web site.


Lots of ways to peen a barrel, pick one :)

[Roadkingtrax]

Lots of ways to peen a barrel, pick one :)

This M14 guy has more straw than the Wizard of Oz. He has proved my point, non issue. Now he's calling it a what if issue, and Garand couldn't do it himself even after cracking a bolt lug with a 120,000PSI round. Sheesh.

http://anzaholyman.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/tumblr_lk6hsccsuz1qeqsgmo1_r1_500.jpg

[timshufflin]

This M14 guy has more straw than the Wizard of Oz. He has proved my point, non issue. Now he's calling it a what if issue, and Garand couldn't do it himself even after cracking a bolt lug with a 120,000PSI round. Sheesh.

http://anzaholyman.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/tumblr_lk6hsccsuz1qeqsgmo1_r1_500.jpg


Bro, I read Hatcher a long time ago. Because I read Hatcher, I know what mostly to worry about and what is best left to those who just like to worry. Hatcher was one cool dude, today many would just describe him as reckless, I'll stick with cool.

[Roadkingtrax]

Bro, I read Hatcher a long time ago. Because I read Hatcher, I know what mostly to worry about and what is best left to those who just like to worry. Hatcher was one cool dude, today many would just describe him as reckless, I'll stick with cool.

I respect Hatcher's writings very much. That type of "to the general public" communication seems quite absent today, with the increase in academics worrying about being credited and protectionism of intellectual property.

[ordmm]

Bro, I read Hatcher a long time ago. Because I read Hatcher, I know what mostly to worry about and what is best left to those who just like to worry. Hatcher was one cool dude, today many would just describe him as reckless, I'll stick with cool.

I just left a long winded post on the CMP site that was non-confrontational which is not true to my nature...TIM---The above quote from you is the greatest pearl of widsom on the subject. I mean it.

Regards,

Greg

[timshufflin]

I just left a long winded post on the CMP site that was non-confrontational which is not true to my nature...TIM---The above quote from you is the greatest pearl of widsom on the subject. I mean it.

Regards,

Greg


Ha ha ha, I seldom am accused of wisdom but I'll take it :)

We have more stuff to worry about guys, we need to prevent slam fires with spring loaded firing pins! Who will form a committee?
We need buffers to prevent receiver heel wear!
We need a steel cage trigger area within the stock to take any wood variance error out of the equation thus preventing bolt/hammer follow!
These things, along with the lapping committee, should keep us all very busy this winter.

Seriously, a guy could go nuts (or look like a total sophisticate to those who knew no better) worrying about every little thing with these rifles.

If you worry about these things because it's fun and you are trying to milk every little extra HP (to use car terms) out of this little motor, that I understand. If you worry about this stuff though because you honestly are seeking more safety, you are sick.

[timshufflin]

I just left a long winded post on the CMP site that was non-confrontational which is not true to my nature...TIM---The above quote from you is the greatest pearl of widsom on the subject. I mean it.

Regards,

Greg


LOL again, you took it down! You're killing me man.

[mac9990]

Glad I've got better things to do than worry about this. Somebody needs to get a life.

[HerkyBird]

Ha ha ha, I seldom am accused of wisdom but I'll take it :)

We have more stuff to worry about guys, we need to prevent slam fires with spring loaded firing pins! Who will form a committee?
We need buffers to prevent receiver heel wear!
We need a steel cage trigger area within the stock to take any wood variance error out of the equation thus preventing bolt/hammer follow!
These things, along with the lapping committee, should keep us all very busy this winter.

Seriously, a guy could go nuts (or look like a total sophisticate to those who knew no better) worrying about every little thing with these rifles.

If you worry about these things because it's fun and you are trying to milk every little extra HP (to use car terms) out of this little motor, that I understand. If you worry about this stuff though because you honestly are seeking more safety, you are sick.

I was in deep on a lot of AR and AK debates for a while and the same thing happens there. Every little issue gets blown out of proportion. An AR will absolutely jam every 5th round and can't kill anything bigger than a stray tabby cat. AKs are made out of pot metal and you're lucky if you get better than 10 MOA. It gets old.

A serious question, though...I've gotten out of the EBR world and into the world of beautiful wood and metal, truly proven, battle rifles. Are there any major issues I SHOULD be concerned about? I have the Schuster (sp?) gas plug, so modern ammo isn't an issue. Anything else? My example is a Mini G, so maybe that question would be better asked over there, but I decided to atempt a minor hijacking of this thread instead. My apologies.

[Orlando]

More on the lug debate, kinda quiet on this post though
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=90757

[timshufflin]

More on the lug debate, kinda quiet on this post though
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=90757

That post is GONE. What in the heck is going on with these posts disappearing? Does someone at the CMP not want this discussed?