Bolts Potentially Blowing Up All Over The Place!

[Punch The Clown]

I'm so scared now about the possibility of bolts blowing up (although no incidents have ever been reported) I've developed a flinch. I want to send all my rifles out for a complete Rockwell testing and magnafluxing. Possibly the flinch will then go away? Thanks a lot M14! :(

[timshufflin]

I'm so scared now about the possibility of bolts blowing up (although no incidents have ever been reported) I've developed a flinch. I want to send all my rifles out for a complete Rockwell testing and magnafluxing. Possibly the flinch will then go away? Thanks a lot M14! :(


Why, why, why, why did you bring this up?

[deputy85]

Rather than risk injury and possible death i will never shoot mine again, thanks Punch for saving my life$clapper$

[canes7]

My Garands, Carbines and M14's are now all just going to collect dust. If Punchy is scared, we all should be scared.

[cannonshooter]

well i's only gots ones m1 gerhand and dang if she going to sit pretty an not go make bang. gettin me redneck up and ready as cation is aroun da corna an dem refles need be takin out an used. dang blasted bolts i's just go to homey depots and gets me morse bolts ifn one do breaks.
Redneck Mack

[Prince Humperdink]

I guess I'm going to weld up all my bolt holes and demill all my receivers.Thanks for the heads up Stu!

[dogboysdad]

I am rehardening mine in the oven as I type this. I also threw in a batch of Tollhouse cookies. Cookies and Garand bolts. Yum!

[howie]

Just send them all to me, and I'll keep 'em safe until it's decided they're ok to fire without producing a mini-mushroom cloud 6 inches in front of your face. Then I'll send 'em back to their rightful owners.

[Roadkingtrax]

I can't believe you are all making jokes about people's potential safety accuracy.....or was it accuracy safety?

Reckless....everyone of you.

[timshufflin]

I can't even believe we're talking about this. Never thought I would say what I'm about to say, I'd rather talk about grease.

[howie]

I can't even believe we're talking about this. Never thought I would say what I'm about to say, I'd rather talk about grease.

Ok. So....which is better?

[Roadkingtrax]

Ok. So....which is better?

I have no way to prove this, but some of the more...ahem, popular greases have caused bolt lugs to crack.

[timshufflin]

I have no way to prove this, but some of the more...ahem, popular greases have caused bolt lugs to crack.

I hate you, I really do LMAO.

[deputy85]

i can't even believe we're talking about this. Never thought i would say what i'm about to say, i'd rather talk about grease.

what color grease? I hear stories about pink grease,,tell me about that

[howie]

I have no way to prove this, but some of the more...ahem, popular greases have caused bolt lugs to crack.

That's AWESOME!!!

[seaninmich]

you guys should not be laughing about this. These bolts are so dangerous, I actually had two of them blow up that were just sitting in a box of parts! the shrapnel went everywhere. I was lucky to have survived. Sadly, my wife also survived

[Roadkingtrax]

Evidence found that M1 Bolts do in fact explode when using non-approved non-GI spec grease. Amazing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn0KBzK2Kho&feature=player_embedded

[luvmym1 13]

And thats why you NEVER EVER let your wife touch your rifles!!

[Roadkingtrax]

HOLY CRAP!!!!

M14 just posted this video and is suggesting that it could have been helped by better lug contact....HAHAHAHAHAHHA....

http://www.rowsdowr.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Bert_snaps.gif



Good post Sonof and to the heart of it all.
Maybe some visual aids will help explain my assersions. I can't verify that the cause of any of this, is to do with lug contact, but it sure doesn't hurt to have two hitting solid when it does happen. I would call this event, catastophic. Watch the girl toward the last 10 seconds of it. Lucky should be her name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn0KBzK2Kho

As for emperical evidence, the entire thread was posted in hopes of getting some cooperation from M1 and M14 owners, for evidence, by checking what I said on the lugs.

But it seems noone here is worried about it at all, that's fine too. But it does seem to be happening often enough that there are dozens of these happening now, and caught on film. Search youtube for more, by using M1, M14 or Garand KB or kabooms, rifle kabooms, etc.

Can you say for sure that lug contact did not play a part in any of it ? I would say from all my studying on the matter, and the anecdotal evidence, it has a high probability of having some degree of causation involved. At least in the aftermath.

Like this example. Note the right of bolt is shoved rearward approximately .035 or more, and the left lug is still lined up in battery with the left receiver lug. See the gap between the two ?

Keeping in mind that the right is shoved back already. What was the gap before this detonation ? I would bet money, it had no contact at all on the left side, and most likely contributed to the right side being able to be sheared off completely. Had they both been in contact fully, the right would most likely have only cracked and bent. Garand couldn't even get his to shear completely off when both lugs were contacting, even when he blew three more of them up on purpose with overcharges.

As for .003 flex in something this hard, and designed to handle this much strength,...... not hardly.
"A 1961 Watertown Arsenal study of the M14 bolt found its tensile strength to vary, as expected, from 275,000 psi at the case hardened surface to 200,000 psi at the inner edge of the case depth to 138,000 psi in the core."

I will offer for the fourth time, anyone wishing to contribute data on their lug contact of the M1 or M14, by taking a black marks-a-lot and marking the backs of the bolt lugs, then load some type dummy or sized empty case to load the bolt face with some pressure, or a lapping device with spring tension, is welcome to post their findings here, in an effort to gain more insight and data on this condition.

An empty round will load the bolt face because of pressure from the ejector spring in many cases, and give you a good idea. For those using a light, load bolt face the same way, disassemble parts from the clip area on M1's, or remove trigger guard and mag from M14'. With bolts in battery completely, use the light from underneath and up into the mag well or guts area of M1, and shine it directly up under the left lug. Move around the light and your eye until you can line it up. If you have no contact, the light will shine through easily and show a crack. There will be no doubt once you see it the first time. I use the snake neck bore light or some type bendable neck light to get in the well area. Harbor Freight carries them in stock, small size only is best. Please post what you find on all your rifles. I think many will be surprised.

To the idea that all builders already know this problem exist....Then how come this rifle came directly from one of the top builders in the country, LIKE THIS ?

Jason, I must respectfully disagree. I still maintain it is a safety issue, over an accuracy improvement option only. Place yourself in the girls shoes, and ask yourself, Do you want Two,...or One ?

[Punch The Clown]

Actually, grease has viscosity and surface tension, and is not infinitely compressible, therefore unequal greasing of the bolt lugs could have an adverse effect on equal lug contact. Grease is not just a toy you can slop around on your rifles! IT IS NOT LIKE FRIGGIN FINGERPAINTING! If your firearms need grease for Pete's and safety's sake send it out to a professional!
Let's be safe out there.

[Prince Humperdink]

Actually, grease has viscosity and surface tension, and is not infinitely compressible, therefore unequal greasing of the bolt lugs could have an adverse effect on equal lug contact. Grease is not just a toy you can slop around on your rifles! IT IS NOT LIKE FRIGGIN FINGERPAINTING! If your firearms need grease for Pete's and safety's sake send it out to a professional!
Let's be safe out there.
Excellent!I was out today with My converted drill rifle.I'm really living on the edge!

[timshufflin]

Evidence found that M1 Bolts do in fact explode when using non-approved non-GI spec grease. Amazing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn0KBzK2Kho&feature=player_embedded


This is nothing, check out his ask Orest.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=86950


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http://forums.thecmp.org/images/statusicon/post_old.gif Today, 07:09 PM



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M14 (http://forums.thecmp.org/member.php?u=10099) http://forums.thecmp.org/images/statusicon/user_online.gif

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: south mississippi
Posts: 268



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http://forums.thecmp.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Sales of M1 builds and bare receivers
When bare receivers are sold to the public, and rifle builds are sold, are the receivers checked with an ordnance receiver gage, and the bolt lug contact on builds, checked by lapping or other means ?

Can you post pictures for the members here, of the ordnance gages used for this procedure ?

When the CMP does these builds for sale, who builds them ? Are they certified military or ex-military armorers ?

Are the gages used, if any, calibrated regularly ?

If checked and gaged, what happens to the ones that fail inspection ? Such as, when a receiver locking lug or bridge is mislocated or worn out, and does not pass the inspection, where does it end up ?

It was suggested to me by CaptainMagic, to ask these questions here, because I have found some anomolies in a few receivers and rifles from the CMP. He asked me if I thought it might be a liability issue for the CMP to be selling these in this condition. Since these are fairly recent offerings (purchases)from the CMP, I was also curious that if they were gaged, how did they get past any existing quality control, if any, to end up in the hands of a civilian ?

Does the CMP have any verifiable data on the percentile of inspection failures of M1 receivers, intended for sale, and the cause of those failures. I am primarily interested in the left receiver locking lug, and it's location from datum. Receiver bridge failures of out of spec, would also be of interest, and production run numbers and manufacturers of both these conditions.

He seems to be alluding to the idea that I will get scolded by you for such questioning of this type, about ongoing business practices and operation standards and procedures at the CMP. Since it is a congressionally chartered operation, I know that much harder questions have been asked before from congress, and I hope the public.

Any help in clearing this up, and any emperical data you may have on the left lugs of M1 receivers not having contact on the left bolt lug, and gaps up to
.003 wide, would be much appreciated, thank you.

P.S.
It seems many people here, feel that I am imagining this issue exist, but I have proof it does. It looks as though I will need your evidence to back it up, from receivers that failed inspection for sale....best regards.



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[Roadkingtrax]

Why is there no mention of the ammunition that was used?

Overloaded? High Primers? Singled loaded rounds, while releasing an Op-Rod with 100% travel and force?

He's setting himself up for a prison shower scene. Failures in a few items, when millions were produced? Items subjected to forces outside of allowed tolerances? M14 needs a lesson in Six Sigma.

[ordmm]

Wow. Was around a couple law suit deals in the auto industry in the early 1980's. One started out like this caused by some jaggoff that did'nt think he was getting the respect that was due him. Questions being asked about QA procedures and QA audit reports getting copied and removed from the facility. Never went anywhere, but caused a whole bunch of people alot of greif and wrecked a few careers. Who the hell is this M14 guy? Does he run a shop or what? On one hand I admit to a certain joy to seeing the CMP put on the spot, but this whole thing stinks like it's being done because the guy is a complete ass.

[timshufflin]

Wow. Was around a couple law suit deals in the auto industry in the early 1980's. One started out like this caused by some jaggoff that did'nt think he was getting the respect that was due him. Questions being asked about QA procedures and QA audit reports getting copied and removed from the facility. Never went anywhere, but caused a whole bunch of people alot of greif and wrecked a few careers. Who the hell is this M14 guy? Does he run a shop or what? On one hand I admit to a certain joy to seeing the CMP put on the spot, but this whole thing stinks like it's being done because the guy is a complete ass.

I admit that I don't always enjoy all the things that the CMP does but this does stink. This dude is trying to make a giant issue out of a condition that is not hurting anyone. This completely reminds me of how we get helmet laws, seatbelt laws, airbag laws, there's always someone who thinks that everything has to be 100% bullet proof. In this case, there hasn't even been the accident which anyone can point to and say, "hey, two perfectly touching bolt lugs would have fixed this."

Remember, we could prevent all gun accidents by just eliminating guns. That's exactly the argument that the left makes everyday.

[Roadkingtrax]

Ordmm....

Don't delete that new post. :)


So M14....What's the deal? Things did'nt go well after you got GM to quit building the Corvair? Who are you some freak'in spawn of Ralph Nader? There is always something real suspicious about crusaders. Expecially ones that don't state their qualifications. You sure this is really about safety or is it simply that you got your panties all tied up in a knot about something else?

[ordmm]

I worked around strokes like this in auto manufacturing and in the airlines. This type of person will snoop around just to make some great discovery only to find out that the answer is ancient history. They are the ones that would wonder why when they would come into a lunch room all the other mechs would get up and walk out. Or when their roll-away got co-mailed from Chicago to Norita they would try to figure out what they did to deserve that. Some people just can't accept that the Sun rises in the East...who the hell cares why...it just does. Some people turn goofy because they feel they have been excluded from the tribe. Usually it's due to the fact nobody trusts them or their work. Some of these people have big egos that can be massaged to get them to sell out others. Man pukes like M14 piss me off. They are not to be trusted no-how, no-way.

[Roadkingtrax]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/27845774.jpg

[timshufflin]

http://m14forum.com/m14/100539-usgi-bolt-cracked.html

Here we have a USGI bolt that was lapped in on an M14, guess what, it was inspected before install and had no cracks. Guess what else, the bolt started cracking. Trying to blame a cracked bolt or a bolt that fails because you loaded bullseye into your reloads on lack of bolt lapping is inaccurate. If you lap your bolt, your bolt can still crack. If you don't lap your bolt, your bolt can still crack.

A couple more "kickers", the bolt was "inspected" by a fellow named "ripsaw", ripsaw is "M14", the OP of the bolt thread. Guess what else? according to the military manual you can shoot M14's with cracked bolts up to certain standards. This thread at the M14 forum also points out the ultimate danger of lapping bolts, sooner or later the cased hardness on either your bolt, Garand, or both will be gone. This isn't a big deal if you know you're starting out with a new in wrap USGI bolt but it might be a big deal for the next guy.

Oh, and did you know that the military allowed for cracks in the bolt lugs on M14's? I would think some lug offset would be far less dangerous, read not at all, then a cracked lug which the military allowed.

The Depot Overhaul Manual allows cracks in the bolt lugs up to 1/32" in depth along the maximum length of the lug from top to bottom of both lugs to be acceptable and servicable. This is at the point where the lug meets the body of the bolt.

[timshufflin]

Orest responds, what he doesn't say is if the Army either lapped the bolts or checked for lug setback. I am guessing they did not, only a guess, because they found it to be a NON issue.


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Orest (http://forums.thecmp.org/member.php?u=5) http://forums.thecmp.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Chief Operating Officer


Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Anniston, AL
Posts: 4,202



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http://forums.thecmp.org/images/icons/icon1.gif
we perform our inspections to the "exact" same scope of work that the U.S. Army used when building/preparing rifles for sale through the DCM. Plus we added a few extra steps.
__________________
CMP Chief Operating Officer

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[M1orNone]

I should go over there, and tell everyone how I put my M1 together.

A big Jet lathe.

A big enough wrench to fit the front of the receiver.

Two small bubble levels, to make sure the front sight base was square with the rear sight base.

An old green can of graphite grease.




I'm thinking I'd probably be crucified over there.:D

[Roadkingtrax]

http://m14forum.com/m14/100539-usgi-bolt-cracked.html

Here we have a USGI bolt that was lapped in on an M14, guess what, it was inspected before install and had no cracks. Guess what else, the bolt started cracking. Trying to blame a cracked bolt or a bolt that fails because you loaded bullseye into your reloads on lack of bolt lapping is inaccurate. If you lap your bolt, your bolt can still crack. If you don't lap your bolt, your bolt can still crack.

A couple more "kickers", the bolt was "inspected" by a fellow named "ripsaw", ripsaw is "M14", the OP of the bolt thread. Guess what else? according to the military manual you can shoot M14's with cracked bolts up to certain standards. This thread at the M14 forum also points out the ultimate danger of lapping bolts, sooner or later the cased hardness on either your bolt, Garand, or both will be gone. This isn't a big deal if you know you're starting out with a new in wrap USGI bolt but it might be a big deal for the next guy.

Oh, and did you know that the military allowed for cracks in the bolt lugs on M14's? I would think some lug offset would be far less dangerous, read not at all, then a cracked lug which the military allowed.

The Depot Overhaul Manual allows cracks in the bolt lugs up to 1/32" in depth along the maximum length of the lug from top to bottom of both lugs to be acceptable and servicable. This is at the point where the lug meets the body of the bolt.


Tim,...

I stole your link, and used it to demonstrate why bolt lapping may not be wise. Hope that is not something you will take offense to.

If M14, RT40, Amsdorf and Rokjoh were in a room....:)

[Roadkingtrax]

This guy cannot be married, or have ever purchased anything.




Thanks Orest. But that doesn't tell me much. It doesn't tell me who is doing it, and if they are qualified or certified, or if they are volunteers that were trained to do these tasks and began doing it. It doesn't answer the question of QC inspections afterwards from these workers. All I am asking, is how did these receivers get past all the old DCM regs. if they are followed so closely ?
Secondly, as you can see from all the hater posters in this thread, they all think they are Orest, they all sling mud in any direction they can to get away from the original questions and issues. I am not asking any of them questions, or answering any of theirs. My qualifications and certifications have nothing at all to do with the CMP's standard operating procedures. You would think that all these vehement posters would want total accountability for such an organization as the CMP. After all, it was our tax dollars that built and supported the entire operation from the word go with the DCM. And, all our tax dollars and hard work that bought and paid for every last single M1 in existence. Never mind we have to pay for them again when buying them from the CMP, they should be issued for free with lifetime armorer service at no charge, if we were talking fairness here. But I understand all that, life is not fair. I was just hoping for a fair shake from someone here at the CMP, since they have done so well from all our support. Without us, the public, there would be no CMP.

My questions come from the standpoint of a potential consumer of your goods and services, and I think I have every right to ask these questions, and more. You also have the right to deny to answer any of them. Inaction speaks as loud as action in many instances. The questions I asked are simple questions, and shouldn't take too long to answer in full. Maybe you could delegate the job to someone else there, who has time and access to the procedures and would take the time to answer some valid customer questions.

For your information, this all started because of me posting a notice thread for builders, and a safety announcement to try and help others out that are under the wrong impression about M1's standards and lug placements, it was not a mud slinging intent against the CMP, facts only. Here is what Gus Fisher had to say about the M1 and M14 receivers, and the main reason I posted all this to begin with. Please read my thread if you really want to know what is going on, and what the real issues are.

"Further, if a receiver was worn enough in the bolt lug area that they needed a longer bolt to get headspace, they scrapped the receiver."

"Now, M1 Garand bolts were made in different lengths over the years, but not M14 bolts to my knowledge."

"(It is correct we never worried about lapping bolts into real M1 or M14 receivers for NM rifles because they were held to such tight tolerances they did not need to be lapped.) And yet over the years on SAinc NM rifles, and especially NM rifles built by Glenn Nelson and his shop for SAinc. the bolt lugs fit the receiver lugs very well."

My contention, in response to the Master in this field of study, is that the examples I am seeing from the CMP, do not fit well, and furthermore, have no contact at all on the left lug in several cases. Now one of two things is happening here, either Gus and Glenn are full of BS, which I seriously doubt, or the receivers coming out of the CMP are not checked closely enough, or not at all, and are getting by the inspection processes you quoted. Which is it?

Here's the thread that let all the haters out of the closet.
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=86716

Here are the questions again:

Are the receivers checked with an ordnance receiver gage, and the bolt lug contact on builds, checked by lapping or other means ?

Can you post pictures for the members here, of the ordnance gages used for this procedure ?

When the CMP does these builds for sale, who builds them ?

Are the builders certified military or ex-military armorers ?

Are the gages used, if any, calibrated regularly ?

If checked and gaged, what happens to the ones that fail inspection ?

When a receiver locking lug or bridge is mislocated or worn out, and does not pass the inspection, where does it end up ?

If they were gaged, how did they get past any existing quality control, if any, to end up in the hands of a civilian ?

Does the CMP have any verifiable data on the percentile of inspection failures of M1 receivers, intended for sale, and the cause of those inspection failures.

[luvmym1 13]

Is this guy for real? He's interrogating Orest now. It seems to me the only one looking for the answers to these questions is him. No one else seems to be concerned or care for that matter. So what now is he after somekind of mass coverup on bolt safety. What a tool.

[Roadkingtrax]

Is this guy for real? He's interrogating Orest now. It seems to me the only one looking for the answers to these questions is him. No one else seems to be concerned or care for that matter. So what now is he after somekind of mass coverup on bolt safety. What a tool.

I don't think he'll get far with all the, these rifles should be free talk. He should just ask his questions off line, or better yet....do the FOIA request on DCM rifle inspection procedures.

There are not too many businesses or non-profits that will just give you their operations manuals. Especially if you claim to be a rifle builder, it may be a conflict of interest. Not exactly intellectual property, but you know what I'm getting at.

[timshufflin]

I could care less Roadkingtracks if you posted that link. By the way, I just noticed someone said that a crack was acceptable if it was only .012" That's a lot less then what the person said the manual allowed and that would go clear through the surface hardening.

What the lappers are not taking into account;
You get a gun and lap your bolt
You sell the gun as complete or as a kit
Next guy swaps the bolt into another rifle and he laps
...
...
How long till you have lugs which are .020 lapped?

These guys are eating up bolts at some crazy rates. I saw one guy on that thread I posted where he said he only used NIW USGI bolts so that he got one where he knew nobody had ever lapped it!

What is next guys, are people supposed to have the bolts punch marked everytime they lap them so that people know? This is just getting nuts. Where does safety end? Sometimes, I really do dislike some people.

Oh, one more thing, I would MUCH rather fire a bolt that has one lug set back then fire a gun having a bolt which has been lapped .010" or more. Do you all know how fast headspace grows in such a bolt? You can grow .001" in just a hundred rounds once you go through the case. Now who's being safe.

[ordmm]

The guy, M14 is a real piece of work for sure. If there is justice, someone will have their dog dump a pile of steaming excrement on his head. Oh yeah, and take a picture and post it on the CMP site........OK, we can always hope, right?

[Dave]

This aerospace top dog engineer started this crap over on CSP monday.
He did'nt get enough bites so he moved it to CMP....

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?32915-M1-Production-Receivers-Lugs-and-Myths


I feel so much safer now knowing what to look for when I build an M1. I guess I'll have to recall all the ones I've sold over the last 20 years, and deadline all the ones I still have. Yep, I do feel so much safer now.

[deputy85]

I'm appalled at the lack of compassion for this poor soul,,he is probably a nice guy when he's actually taking his meds

[Dave]

I'm appalled at the lack of compassion for this poor soul,,he is probably a nice guy when he's actually taking his meds

I have plenty of compassion for him. He's a man on a mission, a mission to save us all from ultimately blowing ourselves up. He saved my ass. I don't know how I survived all these past years of shooting such dangerous defective devices. He is our saviour. I kneel before thee.

[ordmm]

Not off topic I think because most of the usual people are involved, and it closely paralles what passes for "expert opinion"

And, after thinking about this,,,,and having had parts made where issues came up...it's obvious that it's pretty hard in some cases to get a part to exactly duplicate the gov't part. And here lies the problem...and it's not only with the parts but with the way parts are used and assembled. Now I mean this as an honest observation...in a alot of cases, even relying on original prints no one knows what kind of revisions were done to the parts during production. And considering the ammount of time that has passed I would imagine that most of those involved have long since passed. So maybe part of the answer is not get too wild on the web untill maybe the issue is thought out. Now, my thoughtful reflection has passed...let's get back to bashing....LOL


This is a good example of the numbnutz that think they are experts. (except me of course,,,I really know I'm not an expert, just try to sound like one) Anyway, here's an example of a 258 post thread that started with a binding firing pin...which anyone probably could have fixed....then the thread consisted of alot of idealistic postings about mil-spec crap, then ended with one of the "usual suspects" once again having mud on his face...even though he employed a super flux capacitor magnatron to come to his conclusions. In the process.....one of the manufacturers was pretty much libeled in my opinion. Think some of the inhabitants of this site are familiar with this whole fiasco.....(I apologise if this has been covered before)

http://m14forum.com/m14/120577-lrb-bolt-issue.html

[Roadkingtrax]

All the more reason to never own an M1A, it just seems like M1's come together so much easier.

Jerkwads and crap parts.

Captain Magic beckoned him to the edge of the stairs, and watch him as he fell. He's my hero.

[Prince Humperdink]

All the more reason to never own an M1A,

I even used a reclaimed M14 bolt for a long time :)

[ordmm]

Captain Magic beckoned him to the edge of the stairs, and watch him as he fell. He's my hero.

LOL.....The classic ambush,,,,,his ego blocked his vision....never seen it coming. Oh well.

[timshufflin]

What's going on today guys? I must sadly depart for the great wild west and won't be back till next Sunday. I expect a full blow by blow while I'm gone. If this Charlatan so much as tries to say that shooting with a hat on is safer, savage him.

[timshufflin]

All the more reason to never own an M1A, it just seems like M1's come together so much easier.

Jerkwads and crap parts.

Captain Magic beckoned him to the edge of the stairs, and watch him as he fell. He's my hero.


Are you saying that the Captain is a government employee?