What do I think of this? Conspiracy starts now...

[Roadkingtrax]

Clearly you can actually hear what they say on the radio?

BIG BEAR, CA -- It was reported today during the Waco-style fire that Christopher Dorner exited the burning cabin but was "pushed back inside."

It is also becoming evident that the police intentionally started the fire. See this video which recorded police giving the commands to "burn it down!"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNk-bV40XMc

[Jimbo Slice]

No big deal really, just another state sponsored public execution. You know how it is, guilty until proven innocent.

[canes7]

Wait until they realize they killed LL Cool J.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/hurricanes7/llcoolj_zps50aeb8b3.jpg

[Schriv]

Yes, the police used incindiaries to bring the house down on him.
There were some live scanner feed links posted on some other sites that allowed the action to be followed as it happened.
Other than feeling bad for the guy that owned the cabin, I'm not bothered by it a bit. Duechbag Donner had been holding two people hostage for days, stolen at least two vehicles, just killed an officer and wounded one more in his attempts to evade the net that was closing in on him. And was engaged in a 20+ minute firefight with the TAC teams surrounding him. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[cwcdl79]

So the police can deprive a person of their life? slippery slope.

[seaninmich]

So the police can deprive a person of their life? slippery slope.

Why not? There is no Constitution. There is no Bill of Rights. They are no restraints on government. They can do what they want - including kill at will

[timshufflin]

I'm glad it is dead but if it is allowed to be killed without a warning, that's an absence of due process. If the cops said, "come out or were lighting it up", I'm happy.

[cuppednlocked]

Wait until they realize they killed LL Cool J.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/hurricanes7/llcoolj_zps50aeb8b3.jpg

I bet LL was laying low if he was in LA!!! If the cops were shooting skinny white guys they would have mowed LL down.

[Roadkingtrax]

I'm glad it is dead but if it is allowed to be killed without a warning, that's an absence of due process. If the cops said, "come out or were lighting it up", I'm happy.

This is how I feel.

[Schriv]

"So the police can deprive a person of their life? slippery slope."

Seriously???
Yes they can if it is to protect life and property.
The same 'right' that all the civilian, wanna-be self defense guru's try to claim for themselves.
Anyhow, back to reality. The on scene commanders were using every means available to them to get him to come out. The dude was on a one way mission and he wasn't going to be taken alive. It wasn't going to happen. He knew it, the police knew it. We all knew it.
This was only going to end one way. Don't forget that he had just shot two more LEO's that very morning and jacked another car. He bought his ticket to hell and got to take the ride. I hope it hurt like a mofo.
That does not excuse the po-po for lighting up little old ladies delivering papers or shooting up bystanders, but as far as dealing with this douchbag. Good kill.
Smoke checking his ass saved the taxpayers a whole lot of additional expense.

[seaninmich]

"So the police can deprive a person of their life? slippery slope."

Seriously???
Yes they can if it is to protect life and property.
The same 'right' that all the civilian, wanna-be self defense guru's try to claim for themselves.
Anyhow, back to reality. The on scene commanders were using every means available to them to get him to come out. The dude was on a one way mission and he wasn't going to be taken alive. It wasn't going to happen. He knew it, the police knew it. We all knew it.
This was only going to end one way. Don't forget that he had just shot two more LEO's that very morning and jacked another car. He bought his ticket to hell and got to take the ride. I hope it hurt like a mofo.
That does not excuse the po-po for lighting up little old ladies delivering papers or shooting up bystanders, but as far as dealing with this douchbag. Good kill.
Smoke checking his ass saved the taxpayers a whole lot of additional expense.

well, we'll see how you feel about saving the taxpayers a lot of expenses when your connections to the Tea Party, activity on shooting forums, ownership of firearms, or love of the Constitution gets YOU labelled a TERRORIST (we are almost there now. I figure within 2 years)

[canes7]

well, we'll see how you feel about saving the taxpayers a lot of expenses when your connections to the Tea Party, activity on shooting forums, ownership of firearms, or love of the Constitution gets YOU labelled a TERRORIST (we are almost there now. I figure within 2 years)

2 years... No way. It's already done. Big Sis came out with it a few years ago and was quickly hushed up. Now that "IT" has a second term, no need to curb loose lips.

[Schriv]

I'm sure it's already happened. I'm a veteran, used to work on and around Air Force one for two presidents, belong to a registered reenactment group that does US, German and Russian reenacting. Oh yeah, I play Mil-sim airsoft and violent video games with my boys too.
But last time I checked, I haven't written a rambling manifesto, killed anyone (including police) and haven't been running around jacking cars at gunpoint.
There is a huge difference between the two situations.
Do I want to see Joe citizen taken down in his house for absolutley nothing?? Hell no.
But do I want to see violent criminals, druggies and known gang bangers eliminated with extreme prejudice?? HELL YES.
The very collapse of American freedoms and culture that we all whine about is rooted around those same groups of people and the policies that breeds and supports them.

[Schriv]

Fun stuff.
This picture was taken at the Ft. Riley MOUT training facility. My airsoft group was doing some MOUT training with the army team on the base.
I'm in the entry armor on the far right. I'm pretty sure 'they' already know who I am and where to find me if I decide to go rogue.:D

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w248/kschriv/Airsoft/MOUTDecember7th2008032.jpg

[seaninmich]

But last time I checked, I haven't written a rambling manifesto, killed anyone (including police) and haven't been running around jacking cars at gunpoint.
There is a huge difference between the two situations.
.


in YOUR opinion there is a big difference. unfortunately for you, you are not the one to make that call. you cannot deprive a person of their rights and not expect that someone else will, it turn, choose to deprive you of yours

[Schriv]

If I intentionaly cross the 'line' and become a violent criminal, then I should expect nothing less.

So what is your proposal?
Allow everyone to do whatever they want, whenever they want and there are no consequences? That sounds like a democrats line of thinking. Of course it wouldn't be your fault if you did malfunction, it would be societies fault.
For the record, I do not hate my country or my government. I spent too many years working for and with it. Having been to other countries and seeing how they live, I'll stay here. I may despise the folks at the top right now, but that is an entirely different thing. Am I afraid of it? Yes and No. I know full well the awesome power that can and will be brought to bear on it's enemies. But I also know that there are many, many folks that feel just like we do on the inside.

[cuppednlocked]

Fun stuff.
This picture was taken at the Ft. Riley MOUT training facility. My airsoft group was doing some MOUT training with the army team on the base.
I'm in the entry armor on the far right. I'm pretty sure 'they' already know who I am and where to find me if I decide to go rogue.:D

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w248/kschriv/Airsoft/MOUTDecember7th2008032.jpg



OPFOR stuff? Did you win???

[Schriv]

Yeah,
We have done OPFOR and allied stuff for various scenarios. This particular event was more of a joint room/building clearing exercise. We had just used that armored hummer as a climbing aid to gain entry onto the roof of the building in the background and cleared it from the top down. Everybody took turns ( in small groups) trying to hold out as long as possible. Being inside SUCKS once the breaching starts!!
The army has also hosted some big MOUT events at this site and opened it up to several hundred airsofters from around the country. Slinging 6mm plastic BB's at each other at 400-500FPS tends to make you pay attention to drills and skills a lot more than blanks do.

[seaninmich]

If I intentionaly cross the 'line' and become a violent criminal, then I should expect nothing else.

Again, here is the problem. Where YOU think the line is is NOT where the guy that sends the hit squad thinks it is. Your definitions are cometely subjective. This is no different than people that say they are OK with "reasonable" gun control. Well, to the people making the rules, no guns at all is very reasonable. Once you make any concession, all bets are off. Once you say its ok to deprive one man of due process, then no man is entitled to due process

[Jimbo Slice]

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

[seaninmich]

If I intentionaly cross the 'line' and become a violent criminal, then I should expect nothing less.

So what is your proposal?
Allow everyone to do whatever they want, whenever they want and there are no consequences? That sounds like a democrats line of thinking. Of course it wouldn't be your fault if you did malfunction, it would be societies fault.
For the record, I do not hate my country or my government. I spent too many years working for and with it. Having been to other countries and seeing how they live, I'll stay here. I may despise the folks at the top right now, but that is an entirely different thing. Am I afraid of it? Yes and No. I know full well the awesome power that can and will be brought to bear on it's enemies. But I also know that there are many, many folks that feel just like we do on the inside.

I guess it's OK if the cops raid your place and gun you down now, terrorist

http://minutemennews.com/2013/02/west-point-cadets-taught-patriots-are-terrorists/#comment-48928

[Schriv]

Just to be polite, I'll let you go first.
I don't mind waiting while others get in line ahead of me.:p

[cwcdl79]

Schriv, yes I am serious. it is a very slippery slope. At what point is it no longer ok? all that "they" have to do is keep nibbling on the fringe (>2sigma) and the vast majority will not object. But one day you'll wake up and find that you're on the fringe. While the man probably was a pos, he was holed up in a surrounded cabin. wait him out. no food, water, electric. I give the average person 3 days.

[Schriv]

If he was just a crack head,car thief, or even a bank robber, I'd agree with you.
But he wasn't. He wasn't chilling at his house, minding his own business and he didn't get picked on by the man out of thin air. He didn't just snap and shoot somebody in a moment of anger. He published a list of his targets, stated his intentions and began acting on it. With deliberate, fatal results.
Had his truck not broken down, forcing him to abandon most of his gear and head out on foot, who knows what additional casualties he would have inflicted.
None of us would put up with a rabid dog in our neighborhood and I put Donner and others just like him in that category. Do I give a shit about him as a 'person'. Nope. He lost all of that when he went bat-shit and started shooting people.

[seaninmich]

None of us would put up with a rabid dog in our neighborhood and I put Donner and others just like him in that category. Do I give a shit about him as a 'person'. Nope. He lost all of that when he went bat-shit and started shooting people.

Shriv, please understand - I am not disagreeing with you on most points. What I'm saying to you is just this: you are knowingly and willing advocating circumventing the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights. When you decide this is OK for YOU, you decide that it is OK for everyone else.

YOU believe that he lost all his rights when he went bat shit crazy. Great. Over half the country thinks YOU are bat shit crazy because you own an assault rifle and cry "freedom". If it is OK for you to say "go ahead, guys. Burn him!", then - without question - iy is OK for a lefty nutbag to say of YOU: " go ahead, guys. burn him!"

[Schriv]

I get you.

But I have a fundamental character flaw when it comes to criminal scumbags.
The German term 'untermensh' comes instantly to mind.
I don't see them as human anymore due to their anti-social/violent behavior. Especially when it comes to acts of violence in a non-military enviroment. But this case was even more outside of the bounds of civility.
If Donner ( or anyone else) had been sitting at home, MHOB and the fight was brought to him for no other reason than those you have brought up, I would be in 100% support of your position, and probably cheering him on. And I would also be outraged at the outcome.
But he chose to make war on the LAPD using his military 'skill's and training. He initiated the action and brought the fight to them. He caused massive disruption to civilian and governmental operations in three US states and Northern Mexico. He fits every description of a true terrorist. My personal take on this is that his declaration of war moved him from civilian criminal to enemy combatant and he took it in the ass for his poor choice of words and actions.
His own manifesto sealed his fate. If you haven't read it, give a whirl. It will make your brain swell, but he made his intentions clear from the start.

[seaninmich]

Hey, nobody uses the term "subhuman" more than I do. I use it 100 times a day (truly. ask Tim). I use it not only to describe criminals, but democrats. Yes, democrats are subhumans. that is MY definition. So, but your standards, I can deny any democrat protection under the bill of rights.

Also, you should understand that as a "right wing extremist" (and we BOTH are), we are considered by most to be "enemy combatants". you may THINK you are just at home minding your own business, but to most of this country, you are a domestic terrorist laying in the weeds, plotting his attack. Enjoy your drone!

[Schriv]

Well comrade,
I guess we had best not write any rambling manifestos and post them on the internet. That would really set the libs off. :p

[KnickKnack]

This "scumbag" was at one time a well respected Police Officer and a Military Veteran. So at what point, and under who's authority, did he turn into a "scumbag"? Or was he always a "scumbag" and circumstances just brought that out into the public light? How many others are out there, just like him, waiting for that one incident in their Police Department or Military unit to turn them into a "scumbag"? Will other LEO's who stood shoulder to shoulder with him when he was still a "good guy" now condemn him for being a "scumbag" because of circumstances he may or may not have brought on himself? This is exactly what I was trying to point out before. These guys exist everywhere and are protected by their brother LEO's until there comes a breaking point where some Superior either no longer likes them or can no longer protect them. This isn't one isolated case. Do a google search for "police officer arrested" and see what pops up. Some of these "well respected officers" turned "scumbags" will go quietly into the night. Others will continue to fight for their own freedom and declare their innocence until the day they die. Still others, like this "scumbag", will go completely rogue and take out those that he feels have done him wrong. He wasn't the first; he won't be the last.

Either way, the Police will never release the truth about what brought this guy to this level and how they took him out. The facts will be buried in the "official" story.

[Schriv]

So..with that having been said.

You're right. 'We' don't and probably won't ever have any idea what flipped his switch.
But what are your own feelings about how he chose to move forward?
My point was that right or wrong, he chose to go to war on his own accord and at a time of his own choosing. He wrote about his intentions and he planned for his own death as part of the outcome. BUT, only after he had done as much damage as possible. Since he fully expected to die, would any of you have expected the police to continue to assault his position and possibly lose additional men in some vain attempt to arrest him? With his own words, it seems to me that he waived his right and expectation of due process.
I honestly don't know how this could have been resolved any other way. Maybe waiting him out would have worked. But pulling a Butch and Sundance exit with guns blazing seems to be more his style. Regardless of how he was killed, deadly force is deadly force. No matter if it is bullets, bombs or burning CS grenades that ended the threat.

[seaninmich]

With his own words, it seems to me that he waived his right and expectation of due process.



I'm happy to make the argument that your avatar does the same.

I'm not picking a fight, but I don't think you're getting it. the Bill of Rights exists for a reason. It protects ALL of us from the over reach of the government. It protects the innocent as much as the guilty. In order to protect the innocent it MUST also protect the guilty.

As far as I am concerned, anyone that is willing to deny ANY citizen the right and protections afforded by the Constitution is also not, in turn, entitled to any rights or protections its grants. You cannot deny a man due process and ever expect me to respect your right to it.

[Schriv]

So..the man who denied 4 others to their right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should have been given the opportunity to rob additional officers of that very same right. All in defense of his rights to have a fair trial.
I understand you, but can't agree with you on this one.
Had he been picked up off the street after being merely suspected of these crimes, or surrendered peacefully at any point, I could go along.
But he died while still in the commission of those crimes. Don't forget that one officer died and another was gravely injured just prior to his demise. He was on the run and engaged in a firefight with overwhelming opposition. Unless it's a Hollywood movie, that only ends one way.

[seaninmich]

So..the man who denied 4 others to their right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should have been given the opportunity to rob additional officers of that very same right. All in defense of his rights to have a fair trial.
I understand you, but can't agree with you on this one.
Had he been picked up off the street after being merely suspected of these crimes, or surrendered peacefully at any point, I could go along.
But he died while still in the commission of those crimes. Don't forget that one officer died and another was gravely injured just prior to his demise. He was on the run and engaged in a firefight with overwhelming opposition. Unless it's a Hollywood movie, that only ends one way.


I'm fine with your position. I just better never here you get upset when anti gunners say "yeah, the 2nd says 'shall not be infringed' except...you know, it doesn't apply to semi autos...and it doesn't say you can carry it...and it doesn't say you can have more than one..."

There are no "except", "but", or "unless" clauses in the Bill of Rights for a reason.


As an aside, I also find it interesting that you specifically call issue to giving him an opportunity to kill additional OFFICERS. what about the civilians? Hmm? We all know damn well that if this guy had only killed a couple random people on the street, it wouldn't have made news. No effort would have been made by the police to catch him. If they did manage to chase him into that cabin and surround him, they would have sat around with their thumbs in their union asses indefinitely. He WOULD have gone to trial. that's a fact.

[timshufflin]

Here's the difference in this argument Sean, and let me know please if I'm all wet because I'm going to draw a picture and you can let me know if the picture I draw relates to this case.

1. You come home Sean and bad guy is in your house. The bad guy has a gun and you don't so you run out and call the cops.
2. The cops come and tell the bad guy to come out with his hands up.
3. The guy says "no".
4. The cops surround your house and the guy sits at your computer and sells your stuff on ebay for months on end and orders out for pizza. The cops do nothing and you don't get access to your house. The guy just squats in your home and takes it over.

Is this scenario okay with you Sean?
I would argue that the cops would have what's called "probable cause". Because the cops have probable cause it should go more like this.

1. You come home Sean and bad guy is in your house. The bad guy has a gun and you don't so you run out and call the cops.
2. The cops come and tell the bad guy to come out with his hands up.
3. The guy says "no".
4. The cops say if you are not out in 10 minutes we will open fire on your no good piece of shit ass.
5. The guy does not come out.
6. The cops throw in some smoke grenades and your house starts on fire killing the perp or the smoke works and the cops rush in and shoot the perp, pick one, I don't care.

I'm not sure who should pay for your burnt down home, I would imagine your insurance should, but I would argue that free men should operate under the bottom scenario.

[seaninmich]

what you are leaving out is that the LAPD sent out a hit squad with the sole purpose of assassinating a man that had not been convicted of a crime. Do not support that action and tell me you give two shits about the Constitution.

[timshufflin]

what you are leaving out is that the LAPD sent out a hit squad with the sole purpose of assassinating a man that had not been convicted of a crime. Do not support that action and tell me you give two shits about the Constitution.

1. I don't believe the LAPD did this.
2. The LAPD did not start the fire.
3. If the guy was told to come out within a certain time frame, and he did not, probable cause asserts that he gets his ass blasted away.

IF no warning was given to the perp, I would be in COMPLETE agreement with you Sean, absolutely. I have seen no information that states the police did or did not warn dorner to come out of the house. I am absolutely assuming that dorner was warned to come out.

[KnickKnack]

Tim, your first scenerio is more "real world" when it is the home of Joe Blow Civilian. The cops will wait out the guy for days if they have to, collecting overtime. The guy you are talking about is not a cop or ex-cop and he is not in the house of a cop, a politician or some celebrity. He hasn't killed anyone, especially a cop, a family member of a cop, a politician or a celebrity. No cop gives a shit if the guy sits in your house forever, as long as he doesn't point a gun at them and they get lots of extra pay. They know the guy is surrounded and not going anywhere, so eventually he'll fall asleep or run out of food or sell all of Sean's guns on ebay and get bored. Then he will walk out calmly, they will cuff him, take him to jail and thank him for all the overtime pay.

However, if the guy is a rogue cop, knows how the cops operate, is pissed off because his Brother cops turned on him and hung him out to dry, goes on a shooting spree and then holes up in Sean's house, you can bet that no cop wants this guy to go to trial and will make every effort to take him out as quickly as possible. They don't give a shit about Sean's house and property, it's just an obstacle to getting the guy, so they will tear it apart and burn it down to finish this guy off. Which is exactly what they did.

You have made the mistaken assumption, as has have all the liberals, that the Police are out there to protect the public. In all Tactical training sessions the first thing they will tell the cops is to protect yourself first, protect the ones you love next, then protect whoever else you feel that you can protect without jeopardizing your own safety. Protecting property is way down on the priority list.

[Jimbo Slice]

2. The LAPD did not start the fire.




If they did, in fact start the fire, would your position change?

[KnickKnack]

So..with that having been said.

You're right. 'We' don't and probably won't ever have any idea what flipped his switch.
But what are your own feelings about how he chose to move forward?
My point was that right or wrong, he chose to go to war on his own accord and at a time of his own choosing. He wrote about his intentions and he planned for his own death as part of the outcome. BUT, only after he had done as much damage as possible. Since he fully expected to die, would any of you have expected the police to continue to assault his position and possibly lose additional men in some vain attempt to arrest him? With his own words, it seems to me that he waived his right and expectation of due process.
I honestly don't know how this could have been resolved any other way. Maybe waiting him out would have worked. But pulling a Butch and Sundance exit with guns blazing seems to be more his style. Regardless of how he was killed, deadly force is deadly force. No matter if it is bullets, bombs or burning CS grenades that ended the threat.

If this is had not been a cop targeting cops, they would have set up a perimeter and waited him out. Where exactly was he going to go? It was hundreds against one.

[Schriv]

Sean,
I specifically mentioned officers because that is who he was engaged in active combat with. Other than the daughter of his arch nemisis and her fiance, he never harmed another civilian he encountered after that initial murder. He may have restrained them and robbed them, but he left them alive.
From the guy who's boat he tried to steal in San Diego to the people he car-jacked Big Bear, Donner went out of his way to reasure them that he would not harm them. And he didn't.
His fight was with the LAPD and them later the local police.
That is why I don't see this as a cut and dried 2A or any other bill of rights argument.
And this statement is right in line with I've been trying to put across:

"You have made the mistaken assumption, as has have all the liberals, that the Police are out there to protect the public. In all Tactical training sessions the first thing they will tell the cops is to protect yourself first, protect the ones you love next, then protect whoever else you feel that you can protect without jeopardizing your own safety. Protecting property is way down on the priority list."

If I was that on-scene commander, I would have been operating in that exact mind-set. The man inside that cabin has tried to kill me, has killed my men or the families of my men. He wants to die by his own addmission and I will do my utmost to arrange that for him. And do it without risking any more of my men. Donner bought his ticket and got to take the ride.

[KnickKnack]

Sean,
I specifically mentioned officers because that is who he was engaged in active combat with. Other than the daughter of his arch nemisis and her fiance, he never harmed another civilian he encountered after that initial murder. He may have restrained them and robbed them, but he left them alive.
From the guy who's boat he tried to steal in San Diego to the people he car-jacked Big Bear, Donner went out of his way to reasure them that he would not harm them. And he didn't.
His fight was with the LAPD and them later the local police.
That is why I don't see this as a cut and dried 2A or any other bill of rights argument.
And this statement is right in line with I've been trying to put across:

"You have made the mistaken assumption, as has have all the liberals, that the Police are out there to protect the public. In all Tactical training sessions the first thing they will tell the cops is to protect yourself first, protect the ones you love next, then protect whoever else you feel that you can protect without jeopardizing your own safety. Protecting property is way down on the priority list."

If I was that on-scene commander, I would have been operating in that exact mind-set. The man inside that cabin has tried to kill me, has killed my men or the families of my men. He wants to die by his own addmission and I will do my utmost to arrange that for him. And do it without risking any more of my men. Donner bought his ticket and got to take the ride.

In other words, regardless of what the Constitution says, if you are a police officer, you are allowed to follow your own mindset and become Judge, Jury and Executioner in the field, with no regard to due process?

[Schriv]

My background is military, not police. So I guess my prefered response to active, armed opposition is very different than yours.
I don't view this as a normal police operation. And apparently, neither do you. This wasn't some potheads holed up in a house and refusing to come out.
This had nothing to do with shitting on innocent peoples rights (other than the ones killed) and all to do with removing an active threat. Big bear was hosting a huge Police and family ski weekend when Donner headed up there. Who knows what he intended to do? But why else would he head to the freaking mountains with multiple suppressed weapons and gear if he just planned on getting in a few runs with all the other guests.
It's also obvious that my position is diometricly opposed to yours and Sean's. I'm fine with that.
You've mentioned disgruntled cops and wanting to prevent them from talking in other posts. I have no idea what your alluding to, but you seem to feel it has relevence to this specific event. Do you have some background that you want to share that might paint this event in a different light?

[timshufflin]

If they did, in fact start the fire, would your position change?


They did not start the fire, it was not in their jurisdiction. The county san bernadino boys did.

[timshufflin]

Sean,
I specifically mentioned officers because that is who he was engaged in active combat with. Other than the daughter of his arch nemisis and her fiance, he never harmed another civilian he encountered after that initial murder. He may have restrained them and robbed them, but he left them alive.
From the guy who's boat he tried to steal in San Diego to the people he car-jacked Big Bear, Donner went out of his way to reasure them that he would not harm them. And he didn't.
His fight was with the LAPD and them later the local police.
That is why I don't see this as a cut and dried 2A or any other bill of rights argument.
And this statement is right in line with I've been trying to put across:

"You have made the mistaken assumption, as has have all the liberals, that the Police are out there to protect the public. In all Tactical training sessions the first thing they will tell the cops is to protect yourself first, protect the ones you love next, then protect whoever else you feel that you can protect without jeopardizing your own safety. Protecting property is way down on the priority list."

If I was that on-scene commander, I would have been operating in that exact mind-set. The man inside that cabin has tried to kill me, has killed my men or the families of my men. He wants to die by his own addmission and I will do my utmost to arrange that for him. And do it without risking any more of my men. Donner bought his ticket and got to take the ride.


I do see this as cut and dry. Whether this be a hippy holing up in a cabin or a mass murderer holding up in a cabin, you have probable cause or you don't. You warn the person to come out and if they do not, you introduce them to their God.

[REHRIFLE]

The fire was not intentional, it was caused by a tear gas cannister.

[Schriv]

Both sides used incendiary (IE.burner) style smokes and tear gas.
The military style M8HC smokes like Donner threw make smoke by burning metal powder. They get stupid hot.
And most GL launched pyro and many hand thrown CS rounds make dense smoke by burning the CS powder to make a more rapidly forming cloud. It also gets stupid hot as part of the process.
The second advantage to the burning style grenades is that you can't just pick them up and toss them out the way you can with a 'cold' canister type round. In this situation, it was the obvious best choice. The risk of fire is always there with pyro, but it is a secondary concern.
And..Donner was given numerous chances to surrender right up until the armored car began pushing down the cabin walls. The choice to bunker down or give up was all his. He chose poorly.

[KnickKnack]

The fire was not intentional, it was caused by a tear gas cannister.

7 tear gas cannisters, to be exact.

[KnickKnack]

My background is military, not police. So I guess my prefered response to active, armed opposition is very different than yours.
I don't view this as a normal police operation. And apparently, neither do you. This wasn't some potheads holed up in a house and refusing to come out.
This had nothing to do with shitting on innocent peoples rights (other than the ones killed) and all to do with removing an active threat. Big bear was hosting a huge Police and family ski weekend when Donner headed up there. Who knows what he intended to do? But why else would he head to the freaking mountains with multiple suppressed weapons and gear if he just planned on getting in a few runs with all the other guests.
It's also obvious that my position is diometricly opposed to yours and Sean's. I'm fine with that.
You've mentioned disgruntled cops and wanting to prevent them from talking in other posts. I have no idea what your alluding to, but you seem to feel it has relevence to this specific event. Do you have some background that you want to share that might paint this event in a different light?

My position is that if you are in War, you have every Right to do all you can to kill the enemy who is trying to kill you. That enemy, if not a U.S. Citizen, has no Rights under the Constitution. If you are attempting to arrest a Citizen of the United States, the Constitution gives that Citizen certain Rights. In fact, some of those Rights were specifically written for those who are accused of breaking the Law. Thus the need for the Miranda Warning after Constitutional Rights were denied. As much as any of us would like to light up the butt of a fleeing suspect, that suspect still has Rights and violating those Rights only puts you in hot water. In the case of a barricaded suspect, all options have to be considered before deciding to execute him on the spot. Otherwise you have mob mentality and revert to the Wild West days of instant "justice". Whether you consider that wrong or right, what sets the U.S. apart from other nations with that mentality is the Constitution.

[txarsoncop]

If this is had not been a cop targeting cops, they would have set up a perimeter and waited him out. Where exactly was he going to go? It was hundreds against one. <--- This

Standard procedure for ANY barricaded subject. Attempt to negotiate a peaceful resolution, not rush a known armed subject and engage in a firefight(s). This lesson was painfully reinforced in Waco.

No matter what crime a person is suspected of they have a right to due process. Warning or not, you don't just set the building on fire because you can't control whether or not the person will be able to escape. Especially after dumping seven CS canisters in the building. "Street justice" ain't no justice and whoever made the call that day will have a lot to answer for someday.

Don't forget the two asian women LAPD shot at because they thought their truck was similar to Dorner's. How do you mistake TWO asian women for a hulking black guy? And there was no effort to identify who was in the truck just gun 'em down.

Make no mistake, a cop-killer is most likely going to die before going on trial.

Just my $0.02 from 27 years in fire & EMS and 18 years LE experience.

[timshufflin]

<--- This

Standard procedure for ANY barricaded subject. Attempt to negotiate a peaceful resolution, not rush a known armed subject and engage in a firefight(s). This lesson was painfully reinforced in Waco.

No matter what crime a person is suspected of they have a right to due process. Warning or not, you don't just set the building on fire because you can't control whether or not the person will be able to escape. Especially after dumping seven CS canisters in the building. "Street justice" ain't no justice and whoever made the call that day will have a lot to answer for someday.

Don't forget the two asian women LAPD shot at because they thought their truck was similar to Dorner's. How do you mistake TWO asian women for a hulking black guy? And there was no effort to identify who was in the truck just gun 'em down.

Make no mistake, a cop-killer is most likely going to die before going on trial.

Just my $0.02 from 27 years in fire & EMS and 18 years LE experience.


Man, these cops really do hate cop killers don't they? Why don't cops hate the savages who kill their employers just as much?

[txarsoncop]

That's the point that KnickKnack and a couple others were making. It's a different set of rules when the cops are the victims and if they suspect you, WATCH OUT!

The way this was handled stinks to high heaven!