M1 garand vs M1a

[marks]

I've recently watched a couple of YouTube videos posted by a guy named "NutnFancy". He does a nice review of the Garand but also seems to like the M1a as well. I'm interested in learning from dyed in the wool Garand guys what makes it a better rifle than the M1a. I examined one at a local gunship recently and my first impression was that it was much more cheaply made than the Garand. Anyone else want to weigh in?

Mark

[jbkf1003]

The two rifles are very similar, and will provide similar accuracy.

Any M1A / M14 you get today will have a commercial receiver. Some of these are forged (big $$$) others like the Springfield M1A are cast. The Garand is 100% USGI (in most cases), with a hammer forged receiver. The operating principal is very similar to the M14 (M1a is a trademarked name from the commercial Springfield Armory Inc. Company, but the rifle is a Semi Auto Clone of the M14 Service Rifle). They even share a lot of parts.

The Big M14 'advantages' over the M1 are:
1. Easier to scope
2. detachable mag (arguable is this is better or not. Mags can be finiky and expensive, the M1 Garand Enbloc clip design just works, they are cheap, and plentiful. A skilled rifleman can insert an enbloc faster than changing a mag)
3. Gas Piston Design (not really a big deal, you can bend Garand oprods but it's rare)
4. Bolt Roller (no biggie here, Garand bolts work just fine)
5. Surplus ammo is still being produced. (HXP is still cheaper from CMP, but will eventually dry up)

Garand Advantages:
1. Parts are by far more available and a lot cheaper. NOS USGI Garand bolts are ~$75, NOS USGI M14 Bolts ~$400.
2. All USGI Parts
3. Hammer Forged Receivers
4. You can own a rifle actually used in combat. All original M14s are select fire and not readily available to civilians.
5. Rifle is cheaper. $625 CMP SG vs $1200 M1A (high end rifles are more)

Justin

[Prince Humperdink]

The one thing I can think of that was a negative was a week long Antelope hunt,that magazine was digging into me so bad that after I took my goat I shelved it and grabbed the M1 for deer.

[jbkf1003]

Another thing, Most of SAI's M1A small parts are cast or Metal Injection Molded. Their extractors particularly suck. Guys have had them break after as few as a couple rounds. They routinely get replaced with GI parts to make the rifle serviceable. Bottom line a $625 CMP Service Grade is by far a higher quality rifle than a Springfield M1A that costs more than double.

An M14 of similar quality to an M1 can be built, but you will be in the $2500-$3000 range.

Justin

[Orlando]

I am not saying one is better than the other. I guess it depends what you are using it for

In a SHTF I would grab my M1A , I would trust my life with it. (yes I am a die hard Garand guy) I had this one built last year with all USGI parts on a Fulton receiver and have around $1800 in it
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/DSC04585_zpscf8bfe42.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Garandlover/media/DSC04585_zpscf8bfe42.jpg.html)
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/DSC04586_zps54792252.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Garandlover/media/DSC04586_zps54792252.jpg.html)
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/DSC04578_zps5408478b.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Garandlover/media/DSC04578_zps5408478b.jpg.html)

Would I trust my life to a new SAI M1A? well maybe after I replaced cast bolt parts and ran 500 rds through it

[Prince Humperdink]

I am not saying one is better than the other. I guess it depends what you are using it for.in a SHTF I would grab my M1A , I would trust my life with it. (yes I am a die hard Garand guy) I had this one built last year with all USGI parts on a

Would I trust my life to a new SAI M1A? well maybe after I replaced cast bolt parts and ran 500 rds through it

Pretty much the same for me,if i was in a shtf scenerio,I would like the 20 rnd mag better than a 8 rnd clip,and mine is built with all usgi H&R parts.I had some SAinc parts and they were junk..especially the extractor,it deformed quickly!

[jbkf1003]

Get the best of both worlds, get a Mag Fed Garand. $625 + $800 = $1425 About the same price as a Springfield M1A, but pure USGI Forged Goodness.

[Old Guard]

I guess I can learn something every day..I saw these M1a rifles for about 1400 at the local stores, used, 1599 brand new..Had no Idea they had degraded their parts.... I like my older 14s polytech, it shoots reliably and uses usgi mags..Good thing i bought it. But Really do enjoy shooting the garand and her Ping...???The Mag-fed garand sounds like a beautiful plan... Og.

[jbkf1003]

The older M1A (70s-Early 90s) used a lot of USGI surplus parts. Not so much any more.

[Shug]

Get an M1 rebarrreled for .308/7.62, and the surplus ammo availability issue disappears. My .308 M1 is more accurate and seems to have less felt recoil (with the same size projectile) than any of my 30-06 M1s.

[Old Guard]

I still like this Idea..Now to set the money aside for another garand..7.62 version..Og

[Old Guard]

Orlando, this is a very nice M1a looker..I know you have a nice hear of them too..Rifles that is...Og.

[jbkf1003]

The Fulton Receivers are nice. I had one, sold it a while back. They are the best value out there if your going to build an M14 clone. To the OPs question, I would stay away from the Springfield M1As, if you want an M14 style rifle your better off building one from a Fulton Armory Barreled receiver and a M14 parts kit. But you will be in the $1800-$2000 range as Orlando stated.

[Old Guard]

So the Fulton Armory reciever is okay?? I know the kits are not to be had..Any old rifle 14 style is netting a premium now. Too bad we cannot import from Canada..they have the stuff there..

[canes7]

So the Fulton Armory reciever is okay?? I know the kits are not to be had..Any old rifle 14 style is netting a premium now. Too bad we cannot import from Canada..they have the stuff there..

I bought one of the CMP M14 kits when they were available and built it into a rifle using a barrel from OOW and a bolt from Gunbroker. In total I have just under $1450 in the rifle. There were no issues with the receiver like you hear with other manufacturers. Everything went together as it should. Since then I've built one more (haven't test fired it yet though) and it went together with no issues. I know I'm no HamJoe but I'd buy a Fulton receiver again without hesitation.

[jbkf1003]

Yeah the Receivers are GTG. Not Forged, but they are fine. In-spec and they build nicely. There have been some blunders with M14 receivers out there, Fulton is GTG, LRB (Forged, double the price though) is as well, There are some new comers that are promising but it's too soon to tell on them. They are all more expensive than Fulton, though.

The Fulton receivers will still outlast me, and I'm 32. They're bolts are forged though.

The CMP kits are gone, but windy city sourcing, and treelinem14.com have them.

As I said, I had one and sold it. Just have the 4 M1s now and won't let those go.

In my opinion it's a nice to have rifle, but a M1 is every bit the rifle at 1/3 the cost. The biggest advantage the M14 has though is scope mounting. The M14 has a built in screw for a mount.

If you needed detachable mags, Tim has a conversion for that.

Justin

[Old Guard]

Okay dokey, I had culled a rifle early this year..Fulton, First it was rough looking, second it is in price range of New M1a, and third, I was afraid it might have hidden problems..I did get to look at outside and could not determine it was cracked or defective..If i buy unknown, I like to test fire or at least disassemble as people will deliberately mislead you in second for a sale??

[Old Guard]

1003, thanks, I am going to look at these too.og.Yikkess, Now I remember why I was shopping the BM59 rifles..Prices are still climbing on the parts..They did have the kits...Your price were pretty current..Maybe I just need to wait a bit and pick up a rifle after the new year??

[ordmm]

M14 versus M1? All around shooter---M1 wins. Order a $650 CMP rifle and a couple of hundred rounds of the mixed ammo for $100.00. Shoot the ammo up and if the rifle runs good your all set. If not, contact the CMP and have them resolve the issues. Deal done. Investment is half to third of a M14 clone. For average guy, the M1 will shoot as good as a M14 without all the drama. Cheap and abundant parts make the M1 an obvious choice.

[jak]

I got a complete barreled receiver assembly on sale from Fulton when they were at Camp Perry during the nationals a couple of years ago. I bought a DOD stock at a gun show and got the butt plate and trigger group from Bill Ricca. I added the selector switch and connector rod for eye appeal. My total cost was less than what Fulton wants for the complete barrel/receiver assembly today. I like the lifetime warranty too.

Not great pictures...... it's too cold and windy outside today.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj40/jkunig/100_1405_zps1acad525.jpg (http://s268.photobucket.com/user/jkunig/media/100_1405_zps1acad525.jpg.html)

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj40/jkunig/100_1403_zps9042bd29.jpg (http://s268.photobucket.com/user/jkunig/media/100_1403_zps9042bd29.jpg.html)

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj40/jkunig/100_1397_zps3857a25d.jpg (http://s268.photobucket.com/user/jkunig/media/100_1397_zps3857a25d.jpg.html)

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj40/jkunig/100_1396_zps5ac72f57.jpg (http://s268.photobucket.com/user/jkunig/media/100_1396_zps5ac72f57.jpg.html)

[Orlando]

This M1A is all USGI TRW parts built on a SAI receiver and shes a shooter. I have no issues with SAI receivers

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/M1A/Picture515.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Garandlover/media/M1A/Picture515.jpg.html)
100 yds with surplus ammo
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/M1A/Picture714.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Garandlover/media/M1A/Picture714.jpg.html)

[melloman]

Good looking rifle. Did you paint that stock yourself?

[Orlando]

No not me, I have no skills

[corpsman]

The two rifles are very similar, and will provide similar accuracy.

Any M1A / M14 you get today will have a commercial receiver. Some of these are forged (big $$$) others like the Springfield M1A are cast. The Garand is 100% USGI (in most cases), with a hammer forged receiver. The operating principal is very similar to the M14 (M1a is a trademarked name from the commercial Springfield Armory Inc. Company, but the rifle is a Semi Auto Clone of the M14 Service Rifle). They even share a lot of parts.

The Big M14 'advantages' over the M1 are:
1. Easier to scope
2. detachable mag (arguable is this is better or not. Mags can be finiky and expensive, the M1 Garand Enbloc clip design just works, they are cheap, and plentiful. A skilled rifleman can insert an enbloc faster than changing a mag)
3. Gas Piston Design (not really a big deal, you can bend Garand oprods but it's rare)
4. Bolt Roller (no biggie here, Garand bolts work just fine)
5. Surplus ammo is still being produced. (HXP is still cheaper from CMP, but will eventually dry up)

Garand Advantages:
1. Parts are by far more available and a lot cheaper. NOS USGI Garand bolts are ~$75, NOS USGI M14 Bolts ~$400.
2. All USGI Parts
3. Hammer Forged Receivers
4. You can own a rifle actually used in combat. All original M14s are select fire and not readily available to civilians.
5. Rifle is cheaper. $625 CMP SG vs $1200 M1A (high end rifles are more)

Justin

Excellent post sir. I find satisfaction in encountering someone who has made exactly the same observations I have.
The issue is which platform is more effective with respect to a full power battle rifles main function. Suppressive fire.
I own several examples of both platforms and generally prefer the Garand for range shooting and hunting. The box
magazine does not lend itself as well to suppressive fire as the en-bloc clip. Not saying the box magazine is ineffective.

[corpsman]

This M1A is all USGI TRW parts built on a SAI receiver and shes a shooter. I have no issues with SAI receivers

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/M1A/Picture515.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Garandlover/media/M1A/Picture515.jpg.html)
100 yds with surplus ammo
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/M1A/Picture714.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Garandlover/media/M1A/Picture714.jpg.html)

Recently purchased a newish standard M1A. Sr # 30x,xxx. The stock had been sprayed with truck bed liner and the hand guard was missing. Had a couple hand guards so no huhu. The rifle was inconsistently suffering ignition failures. The primers showed a nearly deep enough strike. Head space. Took the bolt apart. No obvious issues. Failed to check the interface of the bolt and the receiver rails. The smith spotted it instantly. So he lapped the bolt. Fixed. Point is, it obviously came from the factory that way. I attempted to get the support folks at SAI to do a bolt swap, but they wanted the whole she-bang and promised to have it back to me "soon". Last I heard their backlog was many weeks. No thanks. One would think a well established manufacturer like SAI would have adequate QA procedures.

[Orlando]

My rifle is not a SAI build , it was just built on a SAI reciever. I agree a bad rifle should not have gone out but not sure how much better customer support you can ask for though? SAI was going to fix it free. I'm sure they wanted the who rifle back so they could go over it and make sure there were no other issues.
I'm not sticking up for them but they do even warrenty their M1A's to second, third owners etc which is pretty much unheard of in any industry

Just curious how you determine the "magazine does not lend itself as well to suppressive fire as the en-bloc clip."
20 rd mag or a 8 rd enbloc, IMO the 20 rd mag wins hands down for suppressive fire?

[jbkf1003]

Just curious how you determine the "magazine does not lend itself as well to suppressive fire as the en-bloc clip."
20 rd mag or a 8 rd enbloc, IMO the 20 rd mag wins hands down for suppressive fire?

Not to put words in the posters mouth, but mags need to be repacked, depending on how many mags you carry, determines how long you can fire without spending time to repack mags.

Enbloc clips are cheap, and you can have hundreds if not thousands of rounds ready to go.

Justin

[Orlando]

True but I think the limiting factor is you can only carry so much ammo. 20 rds in a mag vs 8 rds in a enbloc, the mag wins hands down every time
Just my opinion ,yours may vary :)

FYI, I own more Garands than I do M1A's

[jbkf1003]

True but I think the limiting factor is you can only carry so much ammo. 20 rds in a mag vs 8 rds in a enbloc, the mag wins hands down every time
Just my opinion ,yours may vary :)

FYI, I own more Garands than I do M1A's

No problem, it's just one of those topics that will be debated on the internet and never get resolved. :)

Now what do you guys think of 45 vs 9mm. (kidding, we all know that 9mm will only kill your body but a 45 kills your soul) :)

[Orlando]

MY everyday carry is 45 ACP but my most enjoyable range pistol is the Berretta M9 9MM

[corpsman]

My rifle is not a SAI build , it was just built on a SAI reciever. I agree a bad rifle should not have gone out but not sure how much better customer support you can ask for though? SAI was going to fix it free. I'm sure they wanted the who rifle back so they could go over it and make sure there were no other issues.
I'm not sticking up for them but they do even warrenty their M1A's to second, third owners etc which is pretty much unheard of in any industry

Just curious how you determine the "magazine does not lend itself as well to suppressive fire as the en-bloc clip."
20 rd mag or a 8 rd enbloc, IMO the 20 rd mag wins hands down for suppressive fire?

I understand your puzzlement. First thing I will point out is that there are few men of my generation (baby boomer), much less later generations, who have had the formal training that gives functional understanding of how the Garand works in battle. So,the primary purpose of a full power MBR is suppressive fire. I use the original definition of suppressive. That is. steady, aimed, irregularly regular fire. One round every one to five seconds. In the hands of a trained soldier, the Garand can be reloaded and firing in less than 1.5 seconds. The clip is automatically ejected and the action is open, making a reload a two step process. Extract the clip from its pouch and load. A box mag swap generally takes 4 to 8 seconds, if the mag is retained in a dump pouch. That retention is vital to the persistent usability of the platform. Garand clips are small and light. 800 rounds worth of clips (empty) can be carried in the same space as six 20 round mags, thus making clip retention much less critical than mag retention. So, with suppressive fire it is somewhat easier to maintain steady rates of fire than with a box mag. As well, the en-bloc clip, loaded, takes much less load bearing space than the box mag. For example, a standard GI M14 double mag pouch holds 40 rounds in two mags. The same space will hold seven 8 round clips, or 56 rounds. This, despite the 30-06 being 12 mm longer than the 7.62x51 NATO. Now, how important is that time difference? Depends on how many riflemen are laying down suppressive fire. The more there are, the less significant the difference is. Then there is the issue of ergos. The Garand, with its lack of a protruding magazine, is easier to handle, and to employ the hasty or loop sling.

That said, I would probably go to with a M1A, if for no other reason than more likely availability of 7.62x51 and greater potential for commonality of ammo and mags. There are not enough folks who understand the Garand to make commonality likely. Nor is there good reason to train to the Garand given the decades that have elapsed since the Garand was last issued. If, one has a choice between the Garand and a 7.62x51 mag fed platform. Muscle memory.

[TommyD11730]

I love what you just posted corpsman. Has any consideration been given to the deployment of the M1a via stripper clip vs carrying fixed mags?

Just wondering what it does now (with strippers) vs the Garand.

[corpsman]

Yes. sir. That is pretty much how it was done in the day. Marines would deploy with 5 or 6 mags, and about 200 rounds on 5 or 10 round stripper clips. Stripper clip top offs were common. While common, that approach was sometimes not selected. All to often at the butter bar level. The value lay with increased ammo quantities in the available LBE space. The drawback is slower reloads than a straight mag swap, while engaged, if one has depleted loaded mags.

To gain another perspective on this issue, note the way communist human wave attacks were repelled with the Garand in Korea, or banzai charges on Okinawa. I have observed really old vets, in their 70's and 80's, laying down accurate, steady, Garand range fire of 40 plus rounds a minute at 200 meters until 200-300 rounds have been expended. There was a sort of relentlessness about it. Live in a heavy military population area. It is rather amusing to watch the expressions of young sand box vets observing such shooting.

[Orlando]

Isnt much of a difference between the time it takes to load the Garand vs M1a after you factor in you are loading the Garand 2 1/2 times vs once with a 20 rd mag. You are correct on there being less weight to loaded enblocs vs loaded mags
I do see a plus towards the Garand on simplicity of operation and parts

[corpsman]

Oops, double post.

[corpsman]

Isnt much of a difference between the time it takes to load the Garand vs M1a after you factor in you are loading the Garand 2 1/2 times vs once with a 20 rd mag. You are correct on there being less weight to loaded enblocs vs loaded mags
I do see a plus towards the Garand on simplicity of operation and parts

OK, to review. The difference in reload speed impacts rate of fire. That is steady, unbroken, suppression. That 4 to 8 seconds for a mag swap with retention makes a huge difference at the fire team or OP/LP level. At the squad to platoon level, not so much. As for simplicity of the Garand. There are four small parts in the Garand innards that are subject to loss while cleaning or addressing malfs. Said parts are not extent in the M14. Add the clip ejection mechanism and the complexity increases. Ammo weight is not a significant issue, but rather, LBE load space. This issue has historical precedent. One of my favorite field rifles in the M1903-A3. I use the old Garand/Springfield 10 pouch ammo belts, with suspenders, each pouch holding one en-bloc clip. 80 rounds. The 5 round Springfield stripper clips allow 10 rounds per pouch. 100 rounds.

[Orlando]

OK, you win

[Old Guard]

Nicely written, no feelings were mashed or hurt here... I like em all, but superior firepower depends on the operators skills..as stated above...Older guys like me need bigger mags..Up to a point ,,then they stick-out too far---to get low...he whom has his head up, gets first priority....in a shootout...Hunting, usually only takes one or two rounds..

[mike9905]

Maryland resident here. M1 Garand is legal. M1A is a banned "assault rifle". And we call ourselves "The Free State". Governor Martin O'Malley is so proud of his "Firearms Safety Act" of 2012 which banned the M1A and AR15. He thinks this will boost his chance to be elected POTUS.

[jbkf1003]

Maryland resident here. M1 Garand is legal. M1A is a banned "assault rifle". And we call ourselves "The Free State". Governor Martin O'Malley is so proud of his "Firearms Safety Act" of 2012 which banned the M1A and AR15. He thinks this will boost his chance to be elected POTUS.

Cuomo though the same thing, don't they realize that passing firearms legislation all but kills them on the national stage?

[Shug]

Guys like omalley & cuomo live in an echo chamber, surrounded by people of like opinion. As far as they can tell, everyone supports their position, because nobody who disagrees ever gets close enough to converse with them.
Anyway, back to the M1A vs. Garand discussion...I was seriously considering picking up one of the forged M1A receivers before the new law preventing purchase (but not possession) of them kicked in Oct 1, but decided that the only reason I was considering one was as a middle finger to those who backed the new law. Anything I could use an M1A for, a Garand (or derivative such as the Mini-G) will do just as well, with the added benefit that each Garand is a bit of history. I already had an investment in tools, spares, and technical documentation for the Garand, so it just didn't make sense to duplicate that supporting infrastructure for another platform. And then I went ahead and bought a 1903 with the money saved...

There is one benefit to omalley running for Pres: it gets him the heck out of our state!

[NE450No2]

Being a fan of both the Garand, and the M1-A, and owning both, including full sized Garands in 30/06 and 308 and well made Tankers in 30/06 and 308, and regular M1-A's and 18' barreled M1-A's, I can debate the advantages/disadvantages of any of them vs the other...

The bottom line is, IMHO, is pick the one you like the best. Shoot and train with it to the best of your ability. What ever variety you pick, you are well armed...

[Old Guard]

Being a fan of both the Garand, and the M1-A, and owning both, including full sized Garands in 30/06 and 308 and well made Tankers in 30/06 and 308, and regular M1-A's and 18' barreled M1-A's, I can debate the advantages/disadvantages of any of them vs the other...

The bottom line is, IMHO, is pick the one you like the best. Shoot and train with it to the best of your ability. What ever variety you pick, you are well armed...

Yaaah, that last little paragraph says it ....Target aquisition is the most important, Plus not having to use the sights to strike your target..Loading and operation in the total dark... if you can not make it shoot well, then none of this helps... The army taught us Quick-KILL back in 1968....A lesson well learned..

[cheech]

Maryland resident here. M1 Garand is legal. M1A is a banned "assault rifle". And we call ourselves "The Free State". Governor Martin O'Malley is so proud of his "Firearms Safety Act" of 2012 which banned the M1A and AR15. He thinks this will boost his chance to be elected POTUS.

In New Jersey (where I lived until I'd had enough) the Marlin Model 60 22LR is considered an "Assault Weapon" because it's tube fed magazine holds 17 rds. And by the way, I don't have any experience with an M1A but I do love my Garand. Remember Gran Torino?

[FluffyTheCat]

I have both, but somehow I prefer the feel of the Garand

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu138/Fluffy9lives/IMG_4555_zps5c03e92a.jpg (http://s641.photobucket.com/user/Fluffy9lives/media/IMG_4555_zps5c03e92a.jpg.html)


http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu138/Fluffy9lives/20140207_1703081_zps8723a2d1.jpeg (http://s641.photobucket.com/user/Fluffy9lives/media/20140207_1703081_zps8723a2d1.jpeg.html)

[corpsman]

I have both, but somehow I prefer the feel of the Garand

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu138/Fluffy9lives/IMG_4555_zps5c03e92a.jpg (http://s641.photobucket.com/user/Fluffy9lives/media/IMG_4555_zps5c03e92a.jpg.html)


http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu138/Fluffy9lives/20140207_1703081_zps8723a2d1.jpeg (http://s641.photobucket.com/user/Fluffy9lives/media/20140207_1703081_zps8723a2d1.jpeg.html)

Nice looking Garand. How much for the pup?

[FluffyTheCat]

The dog is my best friend. I would never sell her. She is a total sweetheart. And she loves guns too.