.35 Whelen

[JTMcC]

This information might be out there, but I haven't found it.

What twist rate do the Mini G barrels you install have?

What is the maximum overall cartridge length that configuration will feed? Any restriction from Whelen specs in order to work in the Garand?

Does the Whelen cycle as reliably as a standard 30-'06?

Regards,
John

[timshufflin]

They have whatever twist rate you want.
I don't remember the max length, check SAAMI on that.
You can only fit 5 rounds in the mag well.
I think they feed just fine.

[JTMcC]

I know saami oal, just wanting to know if the M-1 structure restricts oal to less than saami at all.

I have no prob with 5 rounds, but I do have to take into account if they don't feed with the same reliability as regular old 30-'06.
So, "I think they feed just fine" is not so helpful to me. Maybe a ,"they missfeed every so many rounds, for me" would be helpful. Plus a description of the occasional feed problem. This won't be a hunting rifle, and reliability would matter more than normal for me.
I understand there aren't many in hard use, so data will be limited.

J

[timshufflin]

By "I think they feed just fine" I mean that I haven't EVER had mine misfeed. If it did misfeed it would misfeed for the same reasons and in the same ways as a standard Garand.

The guy who reloads mine once did a recipe about .002 over SAAMI and it still fed fine.

The only mystical thing about the 35 that makes it a lick different then the 30/06 is the number of rounds it holds. It will misfeed just like a standard Garand if something were to be wrong in the same way a standard Garand would have something wrong. The gas port is even the same. I use a Schuster with mine.

One thing to add, I've only fired my 35 maybe 400 times max, it's expensive to shoot and I only use it for hunting and getting ready to hunt.

[JTMcC]

Thanks,

J

[JTMcC]

Double post for some reason.

[JTMcC]

I'm going to let the stupid hang out here a bit, but what's the limiting factor that allows 5 rounds to be loaded?
.35 Whelen is just a necked up '06 case, so there has to be something in the rifle limiting capacity at the front end?
Is a loaded .35 en bloc (5 rounds) a stable unit? or do the rounds wobble? Inquiring minds want to know, I'm having a hard time envisioning a clip with 5 rds holding together so help me out here.
Basically wanting to know if loading/reloading using .35W en blocs is a stable affair or if extra time/caution is required.

J

[timshufflin]

I'm going to let the stupid hang out here a bit, but what's the limiting factor that allows 5 rounds to be loaded?
.35 Whelen is just a necked up '06 case, so there has to be something in the rifle limiting capacity at the front end?
Is a loaded .35 en bloc (5 rounds) a stable unit? or do the rounds wobble? Inquiring minds want to know, I'm having a hard time envisioning a clip with 5 rds holding together so help me out here.
Basically wanting to know if loading/reloading using .35W en blocs is a stable affair or if extra time/caution is required.

J


I guess I'm just as stupid as you are then, I didn't see how there was a 5 round limiting factor either. Here's the reason, look at a 35, look at a 30/06, now look at where each bullet rests while in the mag well, the actual bullet. The bullets rest between a rail on either side, those rails don't let the fatter 35's double stack completely.

I would call a 5 round enbloc "semi stable". You might actually be able to get 6 in there but it's darn tough. 6 rounds is far more stable.

[JTMcC]

Got it, I kind of knew it had to relate to bullet room cause case is the same up to the shoulder.

When you say "semi stable", I'm guessing it takes considerably more care in storage, handling & loading?

Wouldn't matter for general hunting or fun use but my requirement would call for solid en blocs ready for use.

I really like the .35W, it's a waaaaay underrated round. Lot of questions I know. Thanks for answering.

J

[timshufflin]

You are correct on semi stable Sir.

[Old Guard]

Just reading here, it sounds like his rifle is the primary weapon in his stash? I took the time to look up the ballistics..Sounds like a nice conversion...`

[Shug]

deleted because I was replying to the wrong thread.

[ordmm]

Aimless ramblings about alternative Garand calibers........And sorry if I'm hijacking the thread.....

I have beat around alternative cartridges for the Garand, mainly the BM14/Mini G for some time now. Think I even blabbed away to Tim about a .243 a number of times. I think a .243 BM14 would be a great rifle---and with some work could be kept light weight, and obviously with the shorter barrel, a really nice handling rifle. Could be produced with or without a mag. Have put a fair amount of time looking at the core component of alternative cartridges for the Garand...and that is the barrel. Lots of machining on a Garand barrel. Almost all of the machine ops have to be in harmony with each other or the barrel is hard, or impossible to make work. Makes it pretty much beyond what a guy can do with a lathe in his basement for sure. All together it makes non-standard Garand barrels expensive. Very expensive actually even if you can get a shop to do one. The only answer would be to run a basic machining op on blanks of most any caliber that turned and treaded all the external dimensions. A cnc lathe like the HAAS TL1/2 is being used already by a couple of barrel makers to do this with some milling ops being done as a second op. The lathe don't know or care if the blank is a 243 or 35 caliber as it is only told to machine and thread the outer diameter. So anyway, and this is just to give a point of info, the cost of a mass production blank is about $100. to $150. and then you would have to take into account a reamer/headspace tooling set for the desired cartridge which has to be another $300. to $400. at the minimum. Add in labor and machine time and on a singe unit you would probably have around $500. in a barrel at a minimum. Which leads to the price of the 35 Whelen which considering the cost of a donor barrel and reboring/rifling it really is not a bad deal for a "heavy" caliber Garand. For a versatile "light" Garand, .308 give a person the choice of lighter and less recoil loads, and the 30-06 presents at this time lots a choices on loads and for the most part fairly good prices on ammo. Think that's about it. Now gonna stare at the .243 blank laying on the bench and just keep telling myself to quit dreaming.

[jbkf1003]

I want one in .276 pedersen.... :)

[ordmm]

I want one in .276 pedersen.... :)

Might be the only caliber you can own in the "land of the fee" pretty soon.

[jbkf1003]

Might be the only caliber you can own in the "land of the fee" pretty soon.

Nah 1851 Navies come in all kinds of calibers...

[centurion20000]

I guess I'm just as stupid as you are then, I didn't see how there was a 5 round limiting factor either. Here's the reason, look at a 35, look at a 30/06, now look at where each bullet rests while in the mag well, the actual bullet. The bullets rest between a rail on either side, those rails don't let the fatter 35's double stack completely.

I would call a 5 round enbloc "semi stable". You might actually be able to get 6 in there but it's darn tough. 6 rounds is far more stable.

Tim,
Would it be possible to take a picture of a Garand clip loaded with 5 & 6 35 Whelen rounds loaded? Would love to see it personally. Thank you.

[centurion20000]

I guess I'm just as stupid as you are then, I didn't see how there was a 5 round limiting factor either. Here's the reason, look at a 35, look at a 30/06, now look at where each bullet rests while in the mag well, the actual bullet. The bullets rest between a rail on either side, those rails don't let the fatter 35's double stack completely.

I would call a 5 round enbloc "semi stable". You might actually be able to get 6 in there but it's darn tough. 6 rounds is far more stable.

Tim, have you tried machining the receivers rails down in order to get the 35 Whelen rounds to double stack properly? That would make it pretty much a 35 Whelen dedicated receiver but the rails dont look like they are that critical for receiver frame strength. You could also open up the guide cuts for the rounds to feed as a compensation for slightly misaligned 30-06 rounds.

1473

[timshufflin]

Tim, have you tried machining the receivers rails down in order to get the 35 Whelen rounds to double stack properly? That would make it pretty much a 35 Whelen dedicated receiver but the rails dont look like they are that critical for receiver frame strength. You could also open up the guide cuts for the rounds to feed as a compensation for slightly misaligned 30-06 rounds.

1473


I believe the military tried opening up those rails on accident in the past and didn't they get a 7th round stoppage?

[centurion20000]

Not sure, but it wouldn't be a complete removal, just whatever that width is in a 35 Whelen en bloc loaded with 8 rounds minus the width of a 30-06 en bloc loaded with 8 rounds. The tension of the en bloc should keep 30-06 in its correct dimensions even inside the rifle without the ridges [a test would be to slide a thin feeler gauge down the rail alongside the rounds and test for physical contact]. The trick would be to check the 'spread' of the 35 Whelen bullet tips compared to the 30-06 bullet tips and see if that induced a feeding issue. Which was why I was suggesting opening the feed lips slightly on the front of the receiver.

I'd run the numbers myself, but I don't have any 35 Whelen ammo laying around. :) [No rifle]

If this looks viable I have a spare Garand receiver for mad science. :D
[Who wouldnt want a 9.09mm MBR using 8 round en blocs??]


A good reference might be to check a diagram or the internals of the T22E2 prototype select fire Garand that they were working on for the invasion of Japan. (The T20 used a slightly longer receiver and had the mod for the magazine; the T22 was the BAR mod with a standard Garand receiver)
The Springfield Armory National Historic Site is located in Springfield, Massachusetts. Hmmm ... might be time for a road trip.
Question: When you are running a conversion from 30-06 to a mag fed BM59 clone do you have to machine or open up the receiver at all in order to get the magazine to fit?

[jbkf1003]

Sounds like a project for a CMP Grade C Receiver.. :)

[centurion20000]

Sounds like a project for a CMP Grade C Receiver.. :)

Actually the mad science donor is a Century Arms receiver. (almost disposable)

[centurion20000]

Actually the mad science donor is a Century Arms receiver. (almost disposable)

So I finally got around to playing with metal .... and that's 8 rounds of 35 Whelen in the receiver and an en bloc clip.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/Centurion20000/1%20%20%20Garand/20140825_231359_zps93e00732.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/Centurion20000/1%20%20%20Garand/20140825_231419_zpsba1d5672.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/Centurion20000/1%20%20%20Garand/20140825_231410_zps364b93fa.jpg

Time to implement: one hour with hand tools.

Tim, what do you think?

[timshufflin]

Here's what I think;
1. What you are doing might work and it might not. You won't know until you fire it and see how it feeds.
2. If it works, who will buy it? Most states have 5 round hunting limits and 35 Whelen is a serious hunting round.
3. The one guy who might live in Wyoming, where you can hunt with more than 5 rounds, are they going to be willing to pay the extra cash to make this mod so that they can hold 3 extra rounds of very expensive ammunition?
4. If Whelen were a self defense round I could see the need and the expense.

Either way, it is very interesting to see if your receiver would fire missing the very rails that caused the 7th round stoppage during WWII.

[centurion20000]

Here's what I think;
1. What you are doing might work and it might not. You won't know until you fire it and see how it feeds.
You have a point. This was just a test on a Century Arms receiver to even see if it could be done [and apparently it is possible .... feasible might be another story]


2. If it works, who will buy it? Most states have 5 round hunting limits and 35 Whelen is a serious hunting round.
5 round en bloc clips can solve the legal issue. The selling point is that you can keep your 35 Whelen ammo in en bloc clips ready to go instead of loading into the magazine one at a time. Hell, I'd buy it for just that reason even if I was legally limited to five.



3. The one guy who might live in Wyoming, where you can hunt with more than 5 rounds, are they going to be willing to pay the extra cash to make this mod so that they can hold 3 extra rounds of very expensive ammunition?
Pro bear hunters / people living in Alaska maybe. And it's not THAT expensive when you reload for it.



4. If Whelen were a self defense round I could see the need and the expense.
Either way, it is very interesting to see if your receiver would fire missing the very rails that caused the 7th round stoppage during WWII.[/QUOTE]

9.1mm battle rifle .... 9.1mm mini-G .... who wouldn't want to be the only guy in town with one of these?

Maybe I'm stuck on mad science, but I would bet at least half your 35 Whelen customers would jump on it.
The rails aren't missing, just opened up, and the distance is tiny compared to the dimensions of the round itself. I think it's going to work, unfortunately I don't have spare parts (and the barrel action wrench) laying around for testing.

[Shug]

This is a hobby...experimenting just, well, just because, is part of the fun. I've been wondering how well a Garand would work in 338-06. With a 225 grain projectile, it looks like has higher muzzle energy than .35 Whelan, and with the smaller projectile diameter, wouldn't have as much of a magazine issue as the .35.

[centurion20000]

This is a hobby...experimenting just, well, just because, is part of the fun. I've been wondering how well a Garand would work in 338-06. With a 225 grain projectile, it looks like has higher muzzle energy than .35 Whelan, and with the smaller projectile diameter, wouldn't have as much of a magazine issue as the .35.

338-06 ... meh. But that's personal preference. In reality though, good luck on finding a barrel for it. That seems the be the hard part on that caliber.