600 Yard. 155 v. 168 Grain Bullet

[musketjon]

Ok,
I just registered for the upcoming 3x600 at the end of the month. Never shot 600 yards before for score. Hell, I'm not even sure I can see 600 yards but I'm gonna' give it the old college try anyway.
Here's my question: I have a proven rifle (M1) and load for 200 yards using H4895 and Amax 155 grain bullets. Will the 155's be ok at 600 yards or should I use 168 grainers? I have a slew of both and the LGS is out of the 174's.
BTW, it's 30-06 caliber but I assumed you already figured that one out.
Thanks
Jon

[timshufflin]

Watching and waiting.

[canes7]

155's will get you done. The difference between 155's and 168's @ 600 won't even be a scoring ring in my estimation. Remember the Palma team uses 155's out to 1k. Hold hard and don't rush your shots. Wait out your conditions too. Before you get to the line figure out what the prevailing condition is, shoot in that condition only. When it changes wait for it to come back, if it doesn't return in a minute or two make a sight adjustment and write it down so you can go back to original settings when the prevailing condition returns. If the wind is steady from one direction, for example left to right, and gusts every now and then you'll want to sight in on the left side of the 10 ring, so if you break a shot during a unanticipated gust it'll blow you into the X or at worst the right side of the 10.

Remember, the aiming black on a 600 yard target goes all the way out to the 7 ring. That's done intentionally so that the aiming black looks the same form 200 all the way back. Your sight picture wont change.

Hope this helps... and enjoy. You'll have a ton of fun.

[musketjon]

Good info. Thank you, Sir.
Jon

[canes7]

So, how'd you do?

[musketjon]

It's next Saturday.
Jon

[Phil McGrath]

Remember the Palma team uses 155's out to 1k.

Hope this helps... and enjoy. You'll have a ton of fun.

Well that's not a very good example Palma rifles also use a 30in tube and drive the bullet as close too 3000fps as they can get, that's a pretty extreme loading in either .308 or 30.06 in a M1.

I can't help with any 155 load data in 30.06, but 46.5 of IMR/H-4895 under a 168 works well, I like 3.30 COAL. Same load with Varget is also a X-ring killer if you can read the wind and hold hard.

[canes7]

Well that's not a very good example Palma rifles also use a 30in tube and drive the bullet as close too 3000fps as they can get, that's a pretty extreme loading in either .308 or 30.06 in a M1.

I can't help with any 155 load data in 30.06, but 46.5 of IMR/H-4895 under a 168 works well, I like 3.30 COAL. Same load with Varget is also a X-ring killer if you can read the wind and hold hard.

I also bet Jon doesnt shoot for the Palma team! I'm just trying to offer word of encouragement and remove perceived obstacles. So much for that.

[musketjon]

I loaded up 100 rounds last night on the advice of someone who has shot this course on this range before. Amax 168, IMR4895, 46.0 grains, Winchester brass and WLR primers. I'll keep you all posted.
Jon

[canes7]

You'll do just fine. It'll be fun.

[Phil McGrath]

I also bet Jon doesnt shoot for the Palma team! I'm just trying to offer word of encouragement and remove perceived obstacles. So much for that.

What's the obstacle, real or perceived? weather a 155 can be employed with success or the use of a Palma type loads in the M-gun, cause you lost me? I often see this all the time where one bullet that's used in one discipline with or without success is later recommended for use in another without even thinking about how it will be employed or the differences between the shooting equipment....

[canes7]

Jon's question, as I understood it, was if the 155's (and 168's) will work at 600. For him to even ask that question makes me think he has some doubt. Doubt is an obstacle that people have to get over. I've fired 55'grn. 70's vintage surplus from a rack-grade AR at 600 yards and had an absolute ball. If I listened to all the nay-sayers and nit-pickers I'd never had signed up for that match. As a matter of fact my scorer was so convinced that ammo/rifle combo wasn't going to work that he told me if I wasn't on paper in 3 shots he was going to yank me.

My whole thought of the Palma team using the 155 at 600 was just to let Jon know it's not unheard of. As a matter of fact I think this whole heavy bullet thing is blown way, way out of proportion. Sure heavy is better, in some applications but how much and at what distances? I know you know all this. I've followed many of your posts about different bullets and so on, they are very informative.

My whole intention was to say "No matter which way you go with this, you'll do fine and have fun" without getting too far down in the details, that's all. I love the sport and am doing what I can to encourage others to participate.

[Phil McGrath]

Jon's question, as I understood it, was if the 155's (and 168's) will work at 600. For him to even ask that question makes me think he has some doubt. Doubt is an obstacle that people have to get over. I've fired 55'grn. 70's vintage surplus from a rack-grade AR at 600 yards and had an absolute ball. If I listened to all the nay-sayers and nit-pickers I'd never had signed up for that match. As a matter of fact my scorer was so convinced that ammo/rifle combo wasn't going to work that he told me if I wasn't on paper in 3 shots he was going to yank me.

My whole thought of the Palma team using the 155 at 600 was just to let Jon know it's not unheard of. As a matter of fact I think this whole heavy bullet thing is blown way, way out of proportion. Sure heavy is better, in some applications but how much and at what distances? I know you know all this. I've followed many of your posts about different bullets and so on, they are very informative.

My whole intention was to say "No matter which way you go with this, you'll do fine and have fun" without getting too far down in the details, that's all. I love the sport and am doing what I can to encourage others to participate.


I didn't read any doubt in Jon's question he stated, he was going too be shooting at a 600yd match and he was wondering if the 155's would work better than the 168? In a nut shell he was looking for a load suggestion too use with the 155's, you offered up the 155 is good because that's what is used Palma. Yes a 155 Palma load in a Palma rifle will lazer beam the 600yds slow prone because of there cranked up velocity, but that type of loading in a 30.06 M1 is unsafe and that's what your post suggested if it works in Palma it will work for you easy at 600yds. See the problem, here? Just because one loading ideology born out of necessity doesn't transfer into another discipline and can be dangerous too the shooter, others as well as damaging too there equipment.

Its not that 155's can't/won't work you have too factor in many things, for me its cost. Bullets cost almost the same between the two(155/168) but you have too burn extra powder too get 155's up too there optimum speed. So if the bullets cost nearly the same but one requires less powder too make work what do you load and shoot? Loads that require more powder too be burned also wear out the barrel sooner so that needs factored into the overall costs as well but nobody thinks of that.

Heavy vrs. Light and what's best? naturally you want too shoot a heavy enough bullet that it doesn't get pushed off course easily by the wind, but you also have too push it fast enough too go from point A too B whatever that distance is without dropping like a rock or going sideways threw the target is equally as important. Factor in powders that have too be used within a certain burning speed can make for a real headache. Load development was done for these rifles what seems like eons ago by some much smarter people than US, For the casual shooter and ATC shooter staying within these long established boundaries is safe and fool proof. So save the aspirin the hard work was done for US, just follow the recipe and dinner will come out just fine.

Long Range Service Rifles, have much different loading requirements that novice reloaders and shooters shouldn't tackle for themselves until they understand what-how it all relates too each other.

[Karlkcfi]

Hmmm, i never considered the barrel wear issue with more powder. I really like the classic M72 load that I foundin a 1963 National match bulletin(I think) using 46.7 grains of IMR4895 and I use 168 grain Hornady or Speer bullets. All 4 of the Garands that I have owned over the years liked this load.