Cartouche variation ?

[jak]

I brought this subject up on the CMP forum about 3-4 years ago and it turned into a good discussion. I thought I would start it again but this time only on BT.


There are and always will be questions on whether a cartouche is real or fake. Some will say a cartouche is fake because a "." (period) or an initial looks funny or is in the wrong position or wrong shape. Is it possible that there are different variations of a legitimate and official cartouches ? For now we can talk about the G.A.W. cartouche.

1) I can’t believe that there was only one inspector stamp used for all those stocks. Especially when they were producing garands at rates of 100,000 per month. So how many G.A.W. stamps were made ? 5? 10? 20? 100?

2) Was the government really interested in accuracy among the stamps made or just getting them out as quickly as possible ? The government wasn’t making collector items. It was just making a stamp that said “yep, this is the guy inspecting the stocks this month”

3) How were the stamps manufactured ? Were they engraved individually? If so, there could be variations among different engravers. Were they made from a mold ? Was a master cartouche stamp made and then copies made from the original ? If the same mold was used multiple times, could the mold degrade or get contaminated with dirt or something ? Would a degrading of a mold cause the initials to become larger (fatter) than the original ?

4) Were the stamps made from a hardened steel which resist most abuse and not wear out or from a softer metal that would be easier to make in quantity but could possibly be damaged easier?

5) It is possible that stamps were damaged on the production line. Maybe by dropping them or improperly stamping something else other than the stock ? If so, were they removed from the production line?

Any of these things could cause some variations in catouches, so it is theoretically possible that multiple “correct” catouches exist.

This is some of the stuff I was thinking about. I will admit that I don’t know the first thing about cartouches, I’m just asking a bunch of questions.
What do you guys think ?

[paid4c4]

John, I really don't have much to add to your thread except to say congratulations on posting a gun related topic very refreshing.
Bill

[Punch The Clown]

Jak, I believe there was only 1 stamp for each commander and it was guarded by eunics. The stamp was kept alongside the Book of Armament on a small velvet pillow and was only handled by the Cartouche Knights. The stamps themselves were hand engraved to exacting tolerances by skilled Bavarian artisans who, in peacetime, worked engraving plates for the US Mint.

[MajorD]

jak all your points are well taken. until very recently I doubt these markings were commonly re-stamped or otherwise faked. I recall looking at my big clawson book how it shows variations in the appearance of the colt pony on 1911's "due to periodic stamping die changes"

[canes7]

I brought this subject up on the CMP forum about 3-4 years ago and it turned into a good discussion.

I dare you to try that again today.;Confused;

[jak]

I dare you to try that again today.;Confused;

Actually it might be fun watching all the so called experts and garand gods degrade the discussion into a street fight.

Maybe I will in a week or two.

[Cal30M1]

Actually it might be fun watching all the so called experts and garand gods degrade the discussion into a street fight.

Maybe I will in a week or two.

Let me know when. I haven't been to CMP in ages! :D

[wgandy]

Actually it might be fun watching all the so called experts and garand gods degrade the discussion into a street fight.

Maybe I will in a week or two.

Please let us know when.....I want to be sure and have my popcorn ready.........


BTW jak - looks like we are M1CC neighbors.....#111 and #112

[BRUTUS]

I'm afraid you'd get input from the same combatants, but I'm just speculating......

I agree 100% on your observations/speculations.....if a stamp was dropped, they didn't care if it got an indented line(maybe it was suposed to be parallel line.....H, maybe?) But the experts speak in absolutes, and after exploring M1s for a relatively short period of time, I feel there are NO absolutes......

[Rick B]

I find if funny because just like a political debate you are stating you want a conversation over something you didn't agree with before from the other party. You want it while picking on those who tried to help and you refused to take there comments as good then, so now you post in order to pick on the so called experts only so you can get the answer you want to hear instead of the real answer. It honestly is funny

I have thousands upon thousands of records and my proof is there. I gave my answer many times over but I see it wasn't to your liking. You will find it very hard to buy wood so if I was you I would make sure I didn't buy any wood anymore as you risk failure in this area for sure since any stamp can be real, lol. Rick B

[Punch The Clown]

Rick, in a recent discussion you yourself pointed out differences in DAS stamps that were all legitimate. I really don't think that anyone here is trying to legitimize a humped stamp as being possibly authentic. I think the question is what variations of legit stamps exist. Stu

[timshufflin]

rick, in a recent discussion you yourself pointed out differences in das stamps that were all legitimate. I really don't think that anyone here is trying to legitimize a humped stamp as being possibly authentic. I think the question is what variations of legit stamps exist. Stu



bingo..........

[jak]

I find if funny because just like a political debate you are stating you want a conversation over something you didn't agree with before from the other party. You want it while picking on those who tried to help and you refused to take there comments as good then, so now you post in order to pick on the so called experts only so you can get the answer you want to hear instead of the real answer. It honestly is funny

I have thousands upon thousands of records and my proof is there. I gave my answer many times over but I see it wasn't to your liking. You will find it very hard to buy wood so if I was you I would make sure I didn't buy any wood anymore as you risk failure in this area for sure since any stamp can be real, lol. Rick B

Rick, Are you referring this post to me??? I have never argued with you over any cartouche question. In fact I have never asked you a question or even posted on any discussion where you were involved with a real or fake cartouche question. You probably have me confused with someone else. You obviously post on many more forums than I do because I never saw these answers that you are referring to. Can you please post the links to some of these answers that you were posting. I would like to read them.

Also if you are referring my CMP expert comment.....Well, there are some experts on that forum whose comments I do respect. However, there are a lot less experts than there was 5 years ago. Now there are some " I know everything" experts on the CMP forum and those are the people that would make my catouche questions entertaining.

[Rick B]

Not for your comments Jak at all. As to differences and major differences that are minor for each manufactures 2nd and 3rd stamps. As for the DAS those are different changes and not flaws in copies. What I mean is that the WWII stamps were all just about perfectly identical and you have to really look for the differences. The DAS stamps were changed or made by different companies for each maker. HRA tried a tiny one then moved to a larger one. SA made a change very late in production for the DAS stamp but kept rebuilding for another 20 years and positively had more stamps made with minor changes as they were made many years later.

Remember one thing that folks forget. They hand cut all of our money and many people make many of the same plates and they are all just about the same. How hard do you think it is for them to copy some tiny letters and especial when they would put in a order for more than one at a time. Its a walk in the park to make almost perfect copies, trust me.

This is the same answer I have given for years and the argument of big differences in stamps is bogus. Yes by manufactures it was different and there were changes with the SA mark as a new order was put in and most probably from different bidders at the time to do the work but when you have the GAW stamps they are near perfect in all ways. The metal was super hard and didn't wear out and could only be damaged by hard hits. Wood cannot wear one out. I have inspected original stamps. Rick B

These were from HRA
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8536/dasstamps3.jpg

[timshufflin]

Rick, you said " WWII stamps were all just about perfectly identical and you have to really look for the differences." So you do acknowledge that there are differences?

[Rick B]

Your splitting hairs from the original poster. The differences were not able to be seen by the average person. You cannot be at a gun show looking at them and see it unless you are really familiar with the "minor' differences and there not on all letters or areas for instance. WRA/GHD has three and were the sloppiest. The R is key but there are fakes with horrible cannons that are close so if you are not really up on details and memory you will not catch it easily.

The differences are so minor in almost all cases that its not worth mentioning without a large pictorial and still then some will say they do not see it. Now lets not get my saying SA, WWII stamps, changed some from commander to commander. My point is all NFR or all GAW's are Identical for sure if not just one stamp only. I have not found differences in those two. EMcF I have seen minor differences in a few stamps but again I would have to do a blow up pictorial to point this out under magnification. Rick B

[Rick B]

Note about the WRA's I mentioned with the cannons. I meant there is a good looking fake GHD stamp out there that is close but the cannons are really bad so you can tell. There is also a really good fake cannons that looks like the Winchester cannons but the West coast guy keep using it on SA fake stamps. Rick B

[Rick B]

Jak, now that I look back I was referring a bit to you mentioning the So called experts. I thought I seen it in the first post. Rick B

[timshufflin]

Rick, I think this thread is about splitting hairs. Talk of dropping a stamp and having an imperfection in the way it strikes or presses is about as hair splitting as it gets.

[jak]

Rick, Thanks for the clarification and for all the stamp info that I didn't know. I appreciate it.

[wgandy]

.....Well, there are some experts on that forum whose comments I do respect. However, there are a lot less experts than there was 5 years ago. Now there are some " I know everything" experts on the CMP forum and those are the people that would make my catouche questions entertaining.

+1 My thoughts exactly.

[Rick B]

Jak, my confusion was initially I had also thought another persons had started the thread. I'm getting old and senile and grumpy I think, lol. Being in a hurry and trying to read post is not a smart thing. Maybe I should answer your original post when I get a moment question by question instead of while at work trying to hurry. I will try later. Rick B