What do I think of this? Conspiracy starts now...

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Originally Posted by Schriv

If I intentionaly cross the 'line' and become a violent criminal, then I should expect nothing less.

So what is your proposal?
Allow everyone to do whatever they want, whenever they want and there are no consequences? That sounds like a democrats line of thinking. Of course it wouldn't be your fault if you did malfunction, it would be societies fault.
For the record, I do not hate my country or my government. I spent too many years working for and with it. Having been to other countries and seeing how they live, I'll stay here. I may despise the folks at the top right now, but that is an entirely different thing. Am I afraid of it? Yes and No. I know full well the awesome power that can and will be brought to bear on it's enemies. But I also know that there are many, many folks that feel just like we do on the inside.

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I guess it's OK if the cops raid your place and gun you down now, terrorist

http://minutemennews.com/2013/02/wes...#comment-48928

Just to be polite, I'll let you go first.
I don't mind waiting while others get in line ahead of me.:p

Schriv, yes I am serious. it is a very slippery slope. At what point is it no longer ok? all that "they" have to do is keep nibbling on the fringe (>2sigma) and the vast majority will not object. But one day you'll wake up and find that you're on the fringe. While the man probably was a pos, he was holed up in a surrounded cabin. wait him out. no food, water, electric. I give the average person 3 days.

If he was just a crack head,car thief, or even a bank robber, I'd agree with you.
But he wasn't. He wasn't chilling at his house, minding his own business and he didn't get picked on by the man out of thin air. He didn't just snap and shoot somebody in a moment of anger. He published a list of his targets, stated his intentions and began acting on it. With deliberate, fatal results.
Had his truck not broken down, forcing him to abandon most of his gear and head out on foot, who knows what additional casualties he would have inflicted.
None of us would put up with a rabid dog in our neighborhood and I put Donner and others just like him in that category. Do I give a shit about him as a 'person'. Nope. He lost all of that when he went bat-shit and started shooting people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Schriv

None of us would put up with a rabid dog in our neighborhood and I put Donner and others just like him in that category. Do I give a shit about him as a 'person'. Nope. He lost all of that when he went bat-shit and started shooting people.

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Shriv, please understand - I am not disagreeing with you on most points. What I'm saying to you is just this: you are knowingly and willing advocating circumventing the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights. When you decide this is OK for YOU, you decide that it is OK for everyone else.

YOU believe that he lost all his rights when he went bat shit crazy. Great. Over half the country thinks YOU are bat shit crazy because you own an assault rifle and cry "freedom". If it is OK for you to say "go ahead, guys. Burn him!", then - without question - iy is OK for a lefty nutbag to say of YOU: " go ahead, guys. burn him!"

I get you.

But I have a fundamental character flaw when it comes to criminal scumbags.
The German term 'untermensh' comes instantly to mind.
I don't see them as human anymore due to their anti-social/violent behavior. Especially when it comes to acts of violence in a non-military enviroment. But this case was even more outside of the bounds of civility.
If Donner ( or anyone else) had been sitting at home, MHOB and the fight was brought to him for no other reason than those you have brought up, I would be in 100% support of your position, and probably cheering him on. And I would also be outraged at the outcome.
But he chose to make war on the LAPD using his military 'skill's and training. He initiated the action and brought the fight to them. He caused massive disruption to civilian and governmental operations in three US states and Northern Mexico. He fits every description of a true terrorist. My personal take on this is that his declaration of war moved him from civilian criminal to enemy combatant and he took it in the ass for his poor choice of words and actions.
His own manifesto sealed his fate. If you haven't read it, give a whirl. It will make your brain swell, but he made his intentions clear from the start.

Hey, nobody uses the term "subhuman" more than I do. I use it 100 times a day (truly. ask Tim). I use it not only to describe criminals, but democrats. Yes, democrats are subhumans. that is MY definition. So, but your standards, I can deny any democrat protection under the bill of rights.

Also, you should understand that as a "right wing extremist" (and we BOTH are), we are considered by most to be "enemy combatants". you may THINK you are just at home minding your own business, but to most of this country, you are a domestic terrorist laying in the weeds, plotting his attack. Enjoy your drone!

Well comrade,
I guess we had best not write any rambling manifestos and post them on the internet. That would really set the libs off. :p

This "scumbag" was at one time a well respected Police Officer and a Military Veteran. So at what point, and under who's authority, did he turn into a "scumbag"? Or was he always a "scumbag" and circumstances just brought that out into the public light? How many others are out there, just like him, waiting for that one incident in their Police Department or Military unit to turn them into a "scumbag"? Will other LEO's who stood shoulder to shoulder with him when he was still a "good guy" now condemn him for being a "scumbag" because of circumstances he may or may not have brought on himself? This is exactly what I was trying to point out before. These guys exist everywhere and are protected by their brother LEO's until there comes a breaking point where some Superior either no longer likes them or can no longer protect them. This isn't one isolated case. Do a google search for "police officer arrested" and see what pops up. Some of these "well respected officers" turned "scumbags" will go quietly into the night. Others will continue to fight for their own freedom and declare their innocence until the day they die. Still others, like this "scumbag", will go completely rogue and take out those that he feels have done him wrong. He wasn't the first; he won't be the last.

Either way, the Police will never release the truth about what brought this guy to this level and how they took him out. The facts will be buried in the "official" story.

So..with that having been said.

You're right. 'We' don't and probably won't ever have any idea what flipped his switch.
But what are your own feelings about how he chose to move forward?
My point was that right or wrong, he chose to go to war on his own accord and at a time of his own choosing. He wrote about his intentions and he planned for his own death as part of the outcome. BUT, only after he had done as much damage as possible. Since he fully expected to die, would any of you have expected the police to continue to assault his position and possibly lose additional men in some vain attempt to arrest him? With his own words, it seems to me that he waived his right and expectation of due process.
I honestly don't know how this could have been resolved any other way. Maybe waiting him out would have worked. But pulling a Butch and Sundance exit with guns blazing seems to be more his style. Regardless of how he was killed, deadly force is deadly force. No matter if it is bullets, bombs or burning CS grenades that ended the threat.