What do I think of this? Conspiracy starts now...

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Originally Posted by Schriv

With his own words, it seems to me that he waived his right and expectation of due process.

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I'm happy to make the argument that your avatar does the same.

I'm not picking a fight, but I don't think you're getting it. the Bill of Rights exists for a reason. It protects ALL of us from the over reach of the government. It protects the innocent as much as the guilty. In order to protect the innocent it MUST also protect the guilty.

As far as I am concerned, anyone that is willing to deny ANY citizen the right and protections afforded by the Constitution is also not, in turn, entitled to any rights or protections its grants. You cannot deny a man due process and ever expect me to respect your right to it.

So..the man who denied 4 others to their right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should have been given the opportunity to rob additional officers of that very same right. All in defense of his rights to have a fair trial.
I understand you, but can't agree with you on this one.
Had he been picked up off the street after being merely suspected of these crimes, or surrendered peacefully at any point, I could go along.
But he died while still in the commission of those crimes. Don't forget that one officer died and another was gravely injured just prior to his demise. He was on the run and engaged in a firefight with overwhelming opposition. Unless it's a Hollywood movie, that only ends one way.

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Originally Posted by Schriv

So..the man who denied 4 others to their right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should have been given the opportunity to rob additional officers of that very same right. All in defense of his rights to have a fair trial.
I understand you, but can't agree with you on this one.
Had he been picked up off the street after being merely suspected of these crimes, or surrendered peacefully at any point, I could go along.
But he died while still in the commission of those crimes. Don't forget that one officer died and another was gravely injured just prior to his demise. He was on the run and engaged in a firefight with overwhelming opposition. Unless it's a Hollywood movie, that only ends one way.

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I'm fine with your position. I just better never here you get upset when anti gunners say "yeah, the 2nd says 'shall not be infringed' except...you know, it doesn't apply to semi autos...and it doesn't say you can carry it...and it doesn't say you can have more than one..."

There are no "except", "but", or "unless" clauses in the Bill of Rights for a reason.


As an aside, I also find it interesting that you specifically call issue to giving him an opportunity to kill additional OFFICERS. what about the civilians? Hmm? We all know damn well that if this guy had only killed a couple random people on the street, it wouldn't have made news. No effort would have been made by the police to catch him. If they did manage to chase him into that cabin and surround him, they would have sat around with their thumbs in their union asses indefinitely. He WOULD have gone to trial. that's a fact.

Here's the difference in this argument Sean, and let me know please if I'm all wet because I'm going to draw a picture and you can let me know if the picture I draw relates to this case.

1. You come home Sean and bad guy is in your house. The bad guy has a gun and you don't so you run out and call the cops.
2. The cops come and tell the bad guy to come out with his hands up.
3. The guy says "no".
4. The cops surround your house and the guy sits at your computer and sells your stuff on ebay for months on end and orders out for pizza. The cops do nothing and you don't get access to your house. The guy just squats in your home and takes it over.

Is this scenario okay with you Sean?
I would argue that the cops would have what's called "probable cause". Because the cops have probable cause it should go more like this.

1. You come home Sean and bad guy is in your house. The bad guy has a gun and you don't so you run out and call the cops.
2. The cops come and tell the bad guy to come out with his hands up.
3. The guy says "no".
4. The cops say if you are not out in 10 minutes we will open fire on your no good piece of shit ass.
5. The guy does not come out.
6. The cops throw in some smoke grenades and your house starts on fire killing the perp or the smoke works and the cops rush in and shoot the perp, pick one, I don't care.

I'm not sure who should pay for your burnt down home, I would imagine your insurance should, but I would argue that free men should operate under the bottom scenario.

what you are leaving out is that the LAPD sent out a hit squad with the sole purpose of assassinating a man that had not been convicted of a crime. Do not support that action and tell me you give two shits about the Constitution.

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Originally Posted by seaninmich

what you are leaving out is that the LAPD sent out a hit squad with the sole purpose of assassinating a man that had not been convicted of a crime. Do not support that action and tell me you give two shits about the Constitution.

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1. I don't believe the LAPD did this.
2. The LAPD did not start the fire.
3. If the guy was told to come out within a certain time frame, and he did not, probable cause asserts that he gets his ass blasted away.

IF no warning was given to the perp, I would be in COMPLETE agreement with you Sean, absolutely. I have seen no information that states the police did or did not warn dorner to come out of the house. I am absolutely assuming that dorner was warned to come out.

Tim, your first scenerio is more "real world" when it is the home of Joe Blow Civilian. The cops will wait out the guy for days if they have to, collecting overtime. The guy you are talking about is not a cop or ex-cop and he is not in the house of a cop, a politician or some celebrity. He hasn't killed anyone, especially a cop, a family member of a cop, a politician or a celebrity. No cop gives a shit if the guy sits in your house forever, as long as he doesn't point a gun at them and they get lots of extra pay. They know the guy is surrounded and not going anywhere, so eventually he'll fall asleep or run out of food or sell all of Sean's guns on ebay and get bored. Then he will walk out calmly, they will cuff him, take him to jail and thank him for all the overtime pay.

However, if the guy is a rogue cop, knows how the cops operate, is pissed off because his Brother cops turned on him and hung him out to dry, goes on a shooting spree and then holes up in Sean's house, you can bet that no cop wants this guy to go to trial and will make every effort to take him out as quickly as possible. They don't give a shit about Sean's house and property, it's just an obstacle to getting the guy, so they will tear it apart and burn it down to finish this guy off. Which is exactly what they did.

You have made the mistaken assumption, as has have all the liberals, that the Police are out there to protect the public. In all Tactical training sessions the first thing they will tell the cops is to protect yourself first, protect the ones you love next, then protect whoever else you feel that you can protect without jeopardizing your own safety. Protecting property is way down on the priority list.

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Originally Posted by timshufflin

2. The LAPD did not start the fire.

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If they did, in fact start the fire, would your position change?

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Originally Posted by Schriv

So..with that having been said.

You're right. 'We' don't and probably won't ever have any idea what flipped his switch.
But what are your own feelings about how he chose to move forward?
My point was that right or wrong, he chose to go to war on his own accord and at a time of his own choosing. He wrote about his intentions and he planned for his own death as part of the outcome. BUT, only after he had done as much damage as possible. Since he fully expected to die, would any of you have expected the police to continue to assault his position and possibly lose additional men in some vain attempt to arrest him? With his own words, it seems to me that he waived his right and expectation of due process.
I honestly don't know how this could have been resolved any other way. Maybe waiting him out would have worked. But pulling a Butch and Sundance exit with guns blazing seems to be more his style. Regardless of how he was killed, deadly force is deadly force. No matter if it is bullets, bombs or burning CS grenades that ended the threat.

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If this is had not been a cop targeting cops, they would have set up a perimeter and waited him out. Where exactly was he going to go? It was hundreds against one.

Sean,
I specifically mentioned officers because that is who he was engaged in active combat with. Other than the daughter of his arch nemisis and her fiance, he never harmed another civilian he encountered after that initial murder. He may have restrained them and robbed them, but he left them alive.
From the guy who's boat he tried to steal in San Diego to the people he car-jacked Big Bear, Donner went out of his way to reasure them that he would not harm them. And he didn't.
His fight was with the LAPD and them later the local police.
That is why I don't see this as a cut and dried 2A or any other bill of rights argument.
And this statement is right in line with I've been trying to put across:

"You have made the mistaken assumption, as has have all the liberals, that the Police are out there to protect the public. In all Tactical training sessions the first thing they will tell the cops is to protect yourself first, protect the ones you love next, then protect whoever else you feel that you can protect without jeopardizing your own safety. Protecting property is way down on the priority list."

If I was that on-scene commander, I would have been operating in that exact mind-set. The man inside that cabin has tried to kill me, has killed my men or the families of my men. He wants to die by his own addmission and I will do my utmost to arrange that for him. And do it without risking any more of my men. Donner bought his ticket and got to take the ride.