What do I think of this? Conspiracy starts now...

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Originally Posted by Schriv

Sean,
I specifically mentioned officers because that is who he was engaged in active combat with. Other than the daughter of his arch nemisis and her fiance, he never harmed another civilian he encountered after that initial murder. He may have restrained them and robbed them, but he left them alive.
From the guy who's boat he tried to steal in San Diego to the people he car-jacked Big Bear, Donner went out of his way to reasure them that he would not harm them. And he didn't.
His fight was with the LAPD and them later the local police.
That is why I don't see this as a cut and dried 2A or any other bill of rights argument.
And this statement is right in line with I've been trying to put across:

"You have made the mistaken assumption, as has have all the liberals, that the Police are out there to protect the public. In all Tactical training sessions the first thing they will tell the cops is to protect yourself first, protect the ones you love next, then protect whoever else you feel that you can protect without jeopardizing your own safety. Protecting property is way down on the priority list."

If I was that on-scene commander, I would have been operating in that exact mind-set. The man inside that cabin has tried to kill me, has killed my men or the families of my men. He wants to die by his own addmission and I will do my utmost to arrange that for him. And do it without risking any more of my men. Donner bought his ticket and got to take the ride.

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In other words, regardless of what the Constitution says, if you are a police officer, you are allowed to follow your own mindset and become Judge, Jury and Executioner in the field, with no regard to due process?

My background is military, not police. So I guess my prefered response to active, armed opposition is very different than yours.
I don't view this as a normal police operation. And apparently, neither do you. This wasn't some potheads holed up in a house and refusing to come out.
This had nothing to do with shitting on innocent peoples rights (other than the ones killed) and all to do with removing an active threat. Big bear was hosting a huge Police and family ski weekend when Donner headed up there. Who knows what he intended to do? But why else would he head to the freaking mountains with multiple suppressed weapons and gear if he just planned on getting in a few runs with all the other guests.
It's also obvious that my position is diometricly opposed to yours and Sean's. I'm fine with that.
You've mentioned disgruntled cops and wanting to prevent them from talking in other posts. I have no idea what your alluding to, but you seem to feel it has relevence to this specific event. Do you have some background that you want to share that might paint this event in a different light?

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Originally Posted by Jimbo Slice

If they did, in fact start the fire, would your position change?

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They did not start the fire, it was not in their jurisdiction. The county san bernadino boys did.

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Originally Posted by Schriv

Sean,
I specifically mentioned officers because that is who he was engaged in active combat with. Other than the daughter of his arch nemisis and her fiance, he never harmed another civilian he encountered after that initial murder. He may have restrained them and robbed them, but he left them alive.
From the guy who's boat he tried to steal in San Diego to the people he car-jacked Big Bear, Donner went out of his way to reasure them that he would not harm them. And he didn't.
His fight was with the LAPD and them later the local police.
That is why I don't see this as a cut and dried 2A or any other bill of rights argument.
And this statement is right in line with I've been trying to put across:

"You have made the mistaken assumption, as has have all the liberals, that the Police are out there to protect the public. In all Tactical training sessions the first thing they will tell the cops is to protect yourself first, protect the ones you love next, then protect whoever else you feel that you can protect without jeopardizing your own safety. Protecting property is way down on the priority list."

If I was that on-scene commander, I would have been operating in that exact mind-set. The man inside that cabin has tried to kill me, has killed my men or the families of my men. He wants to die by his own addmission and I will do my utmost to arrange that for him. And do it without risking any more of my men. Donner bought his ticket and got to take the ride.

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I do see this as cut and dry. Whether this be a hippy holing up in a cabin or a mass murderer holding up in a cabin, you have probable cause or you don't. You warn the person to come out and if they do not, you introduce them to their God.

The fire was not intentional, it was caused by a tear gas cannister.

Both sides used incendiary (IE.burner) style smokes and tear gas.
The military style M8HC smokes like Donner threw make smoke by burning metal powder. They get stupid hot.
And most GL launched pyro and many hand thrown CS rounds make dense smoke by burning the CS powder to make a more rapidly forming cloud. It also gets stupid hot as part of the process.
The second advantage to the burning style grenades is that you can't just pick them up and toss them out the way you can with a 'cold' canister type round. In this situation, it was the obvious best choice. The risk of fire is always there with pyro, but it is a secondary concern.
And..Donner was given numerous chances to surrender right up until the armored car began pushing down the cabin walls. The choice to bunker down or give up was all his. He chose poorly.

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Originally Posted by REHRIFLE

The fire was not intentional, it was caused by a tear gas cannister.

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7 tear gas cannisters, to be exact.

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Originally Posted by Schriv

My background is military, not police. So I guess my prefered response to active, armed opposition is very different than yours.
I don't view this as a normal police operation. And apparently, neither do you. This wasn't some potheads holed up in a house and refusing to come out.
This had nothing to do with shitting on innocent peoples rights (other than the ones killed) and all to do with removing an active threat. Big bear was hosting a huge Police and family ski weekend when Donner headed up there. Who knows what he intended to do? But why else would he head to the freaking mountains with multiple suppressed weapons and gear if he just planned on getting in a few runs with all the other guests.
It's also obvious that my position is diometricly opposed to yours and Sean's. I'm fine with that.
You've mentioned disgruntled cops and wanting to prevent them from talking in other posts. I have no idea what your alluding to, but you seem to feel it has relevence to this specific event. Do you have some background that you want to share that might paint this event in a different light?

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My position is that if you are in War, you have every Right to do all you can to kill the enemy who is trying to kill you. That enemy, if not a U.S. Citizen, has no Rights under the Constitution. If you are attempting to arrest a Citizen of the United States, the Constitution gives that Citizen certain Rights. In fact, some of those Rights were specifically written for those who are accused of breaking the Law. Thus the need for the Miranda Warning after Constitutional Rights were denied. As much as any of us would like to light up the butt of a fleeing suspect, that suspect still has Rights and violating those Rights only puts you in hot water. In the case of a barricaded suspect, all options have to be considered before deciding to execute him on the spot. Otherwise you have mob mentality and revert to the Wild West days of instant "justice". Whether you consider that wrong or right, what sets the U.S. apart from other nations with that mentality is the Constitution.

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Originally Posted by KnickKnack

If this is had not been a cop targeting cops, they would have set up a perimeter and waited him out. Where exactly was he going to go? It was hundreds against one.

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<--- This

Standard procedure for ANY barricaded subject. Attempt to negotiate a peaceful resolution, not rush a known armed subject and engage in a firefight(s). This lesson was painfully reinforced in Waco.

No matter what crime a person is suspected of they have a right to due process. Warning or not, you don't just set the building on fire because you can't control whether or not the person will be able to escape. Especially after dumping seven CS canisters in the building. "Street justice" ain't no justice and whoever made the call that day will have a lot to answer for someday.

Don't forget the two asian women LAPD shot at because they thought their truck was similar to Dorner's. How do you mistake TWO asian women for a hulking black guy? And there was no effort to identify who was in the truck just gun 'em down.

Make no mistake, a cop-killer is most likely going to die before going on trial.

Just my $0.02 from 27 years in fire & EMS and 18 years LE experience.

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Originally Posted by txarsoncop

<--- This

Standard procedure for ANY barricaded subject. Attempt to negotiate a peaceful resolution, not rush a known armed subject and engage in a firefight(s). This lesson was painfully reinforced in Waco.

No matter what crime a person is suspected of they have a right to due process. Warning or not, you don't just set the building on fire because you can't control whether or not the person will be able to escape. Especially after dumping seven CS canisters in the building. "Street justice" ain't no justice and whoever made the call that day will have a lot to answer for someday.

Don't forget the two asian women LAPD shot at because they thought their truck was similar to Dorner's. How do you mistake TWO asian women for a hulking black guy? And there was no effort to identify who was in the truck just gun 'em down.

Make no mistake, a cop-killer is most likely going to die before going on trial.

Just my $0.02 from 27 years in fire & EMS and 18 years LE experience.

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Man, these cops really do hate cop killers don't they? Why don't cops hate the savages who kill their employers just as much?